Zuma and the Church

[Chuluka]

This is really beginning to look like South Africa is heading towards a dictatorship.

Read article here (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=6&art_id=nw20090318175024163C700912)

[onona]

Such a cheap shot, going for moral blackmailing through the religious organisations. Right now, I really have no response other than:

:/

[Chuluka]

South Africa doesn't have a state religion! Zuma should not have been allowed to campaign in the Rhema Church in the first place. This is really going too far.

[Graal]

Well, there's not much we can do anyway, is there? All we can do is sit back and watch this country go down the drain. And I'm sorry for anyone who disagrees, but that's exactly what's going to happen eventually.

[Domanskip]

Yeah this country has been a lost cause for ages now. From apartheid to this...
Anyone who thinks otherwise truly is deluded.

[onona]

inb4 IF UR NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION UR PART OF THE PROBLEM!!11

[Graal]

inb4 IF UR NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION UR PART OF THE PROBLEM!!11

What solution?

[onona]

It was a follow-on to Domanskip's post about people who delude themselves.

[Graal]

It was a follow-on to Domanskip's post about people who delude themselves.

Ah, my bad.

[Ajust]

All optimistic visions of the south african future aside ([/sarcasm]), this reminds me of when Mugabe said "only God" can remove him from office.

[Chuluka]

All optimistic visions of the south african future aside ([/sarcasm]), this reminds me of when Mugabe said "only God" can remove him from office.

QFE

Thats exactly why this is beginning to get out of hand.

[Wesley]

We're not shy to encourage everyone to vote for the organisation because there is no other organisation with as rich a history as ours.

Well, I'm sure there are organisations and parties with less blundering idiots in their midst.

To the ANC, I say this: You've won the war against Apartheid, you've won back the country your ancestors first inhabited, and you've done a lot of good for the country. Now, please step down and end this ****ing monopoly so that we can carry on making a good name for ourselves, instead of having you twits drag us through the mud again. Oh, and please stop bringing up the Apartheid thing to use to your advantage - its done, its over, and Madiba himself hammered the nails into its coffin, now let it go.

[Visi_Ace]

Since Zuma is using Christianity in this case I have the following to say from my point of view:

I agree that this is taking things too far. Zuma today said (http://www.news24.com/News24/Elections/News/0,,2-2478-2479_2487750,00.html) that "if God is for the ANC who can be against them?".

Depending if God is really for (with) someone well, God Himself can be against that someone. There are a number of examples in the Bible of where people thought God was with them or where leaders told the army that God was with them. That provided them and the people with false sense of security, but in fact the leaders were actually just trying to use God for their own gain or as a tool to persuade the army or instill fear onto the enemy. As you can see in this reference (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%204;&version=64;) things do not work that way. People cant use God for their gain, it works other way around.

[Higushi]

I'm still optimistic. This election could be interesting, perhaps changing the face of South African politics for the better.

Politicians are always going to grab at anything that might gain them votes, the church included. This we know. But I do find it very sad that the church, an institution with supposed good moral grounding and virtue, would openly support a man convicted of rape and corruption.

It all boils down to the mindset of the people in the communities, they can't think for themselves or see the situation clearly - I know this because I live literally right next to one of the biggest informal settlements in SA and have spoken to many about politics - they are blinded by the lingering fog of liberation.

I feel that with the formation of this new party - COPE - that if the ANC does not do its job in the next term of leadership, the people might start to think twice about their future and begin to change their vote to them. I'm hoping this has begun already and we see results in this election. It would be a great step in the right direction for the future of SA politics.

[Ajust]

I'm still optimistic. This election could be interesting, perhaps changing the face of South African politics for the better.

Politicians are always going to grab at anything that might gain them votes, the church included. This we know. But I do find it very sad that the church, an institution with supposed good moral grounding and virtue, would openly support a man convicted of rape and corruption.

It all boils down to the mindset of the people in the communities, they can't think for themselves or see the situation clearly - I know this because I live literally right next to one of the biggest informal settlements in SA and have spoken to many about politics - they are blinded by the lingering fog of liberation.

I feel that with the formation of this new party - COPE - that if the ANC does not do its job in the next term of leadership, the people might start to think twice about their future and begin to change their vote to them. I'm hoping this has begun already and we see results in this election. It would be a great step in the right direction for the future of SA politics.

Glad to I'm not the only forumite optimistic about the coming elections :/

[Q-Man]

I firmly believe that Government and Religion should be two completely separate and unrelated entities. Together they're a dangerous force. Politicians shouldn't be allowed to preach in religious communities, and in the event that a religious figure become an electable politician, one of the offices should be forfeit.

You can't be a politician AND a priest; it's inherently contradictory; one serves God, the other serves Man, so which is it?

That's not to say Politicians can't be religious, or that Priests and such can't be political - they just shouldn't let them mix in the context of the other.

Truthfully, Zuma isn't doing anything wrong here - he's being a politician; the head of the church, though, should re-evaluate his stance :P

[dammit]

The church's support for the ANC was an "unequivocal biblical declaration that if God is for us who can be against us," party president Jacob Zuma said on Wednesday.

I lol'd

[HolyMackerel]

I think COPE is going to give the ANC a run for their money. . . Poor man thinks he can now sit back and God will sort everything out for him. . .

[wrathex]

Oh, but NO, because I remember clearly the St James Church Massacre:

Let me quote for you :

"The Pan Africanist Student Organisation (PASO) and the Azanian National Youth Unity (AZANYU) said that they were perplexed and shocked at the level of reaction to "the killing of only 11 European settlers" at St. James Church.

The statement said that as churches were counter-revolutionary they were legitimate targets of war.

The weapons and ammunitions that were possessed by the applicants were supplied by APLA and were possessed by the applicants for the purpose of carrying out this operation. Such possession was therefore an act associated with a political objective. "

What can I say ?

[theDamaged]

Zuma forgets though when he says "God is for us", one of the cornerstones of Christian belief (as far as I know) is free will. That is why they say the Devil can tempt man (not being gender specific here) because we have the right to choose.

Therefore God is not for or against anyone, he basically says, Dude live your life, I will let you know how well you did at the end. Also how can Zuma claim to be a Christian and a pastor to boot when he has like a gazillion wives?

I have no doubt Jacob assface Zuma will be our next prez but I don't think they will get the 2/3 majority and hopefully this will be a wakeup call to them that they can't keep screwing us, that or I am being totally naive

[cr@zydude]

When I first saw this, I wasn't sure why Rema would allow Zuma to campaign. The last few days have dented my hopes for SA, this and the NPA saying that they're 'considering' Zuma's charges.

However I remain an optimist, and will be voting, hopefully the ANC's power is reduced and the loose in 1 or 2 provinces.

[Chuluka]

Things are getting worse by the day (http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=962064)

[Mic]

@Ajust and Higushi: I'm also optimistic about the elections :O. We'll probably even see a coalition government if all goes well with the opposition.
@Everyone that says this country has gone downhill since end of apartheid: it hasn't! Mandela was a great leader! since 1994 I believe our country was at its peak, only after he had stepped down did the **** hit the fan.
It's a shame really, that I won't be here for the elections. I would have loved to be here at ground zero on election day.

[Graal]

Well, we can always just pray that a lightning bolt comes streaking down and hits Mr. Z square on the ass...
Seriously, I'm surprised Mandela is still backing the ANC.

[Mic]

Seriously, I'm surprised Mandela is still backing the ANC.
I don't think he has any other choice, I mean, he was the one that led us to freedom, he can't just leave that party and move on because the party won't leave him and move on. That's the only logical explanation I can think of.

[Graal]

I don't think he has any other choice, I mean, he was the one that led us to freedom, he can't just leave that party and move on because the party won't leave him and move on. That's the only logical explanation I can think of.

Yeah, it's true, but if he publicly voices anything about the party that is bothering him the ANC will have to change. Mandela is the face of the ANC and people listen really closely whenever he speaks out.

[Repline]

The SA Council of Churches (SACC) will investigate complaints against some of its North West members who have promised to support ANC leader Jacob Zuma in upcoming elections, Beeld newspaper said on Friday.

"Nobody had a mandate to speak on our behalf. I want to make it very clear that the SACC does not have any candidate or party of preference," SACC general secretary Eddie Makue said.

He said the organisation had received complaints from some of its members following Zuma's meeting with several religious leaders in Mafikeng in the North West earlier this week.

Zuma reportedly said the church's support for the African National Congress was an "unequivocal biblical declaration that if God is for us, who can be against us".

This meeting came days after Zuma addressed the Rhema church during a service, a move that sparked much debate and saw several worshippers walk out.

Gotta love elections.

[nX3lemZ]

Just to reiterate what has been touched on, I too believe Zuma is just doing his job as politician. Whether or not his aproach is good or bad is entirely based on perception. It is the church that disgusts me though that they can allow Zuma the opportunity to campaign like that.

[phreak]

Things are getting worse by the day (http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Article.aspx?id=962064)

If they win he'll give them a huge ass party in their province.....

I employ about 50-60 black people.
Now here is the crazy thing: I asked some of them if they were gonna vote for COPE... their reply.. get ready for this....... : The ANC has been telling them that only the ANC has money to run the country, if cope gets elected they don't have any money to run the country....

When I told them that it doesn't work that way and that the ruling party takes control of the counties finances they looked at me like if was crazy, they wouldn't believe me because.. according to them: the anc would never lie to them!

Excuse me while I go vomit.....

[Repline]

If they win he'll give them a huge ass party in their province.....

I employ about 50-60 black people.
Now here is the crazy thing: I asked some of them if they were gonna vote for COPE... their reply.. get ready for this....... : The ANC has been telling them that only the ANC has money to run the country, if cope gets elected they don't have any money to run the country....

When I told them that it doesn't work that way and that the ruling party takes control of the counties finances they looked at me like if was crazy, they wouldn't believe me because.. according to them: the anc would never lie to them!

Excuse me while I go vomit.....


Unfortunatly that's politics. If you can get the people to believe what you stand for... They'll believe anything you say.

Though, just to mention the DA, COPE etc all use similiar tactics.

Perhaps the only solution to this is education? Yet we all have to agree the ANC did a good job regarding. It's just sad because of all the fraud and self glorification.

[wisp]

he was the one that led us to freedom,
???? O.o, sorry but i was always free.Seeing as it is a us and them senario here rather say them

[FTB_Screamer]

http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/FTB_Screamer/zumatello.jpg

That is all.

[Q-Man]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g61/Q-Man_2006/n620391293_2725500_6284845.jpg

I lol'd

[Nandrew]

???? O.o, sorry but i was always free.Seeing as it is a us and them senario here rather say them

The amount of white businessmen who were assassinated during the apartheid era for having funny ideas may astound you.

Whites got the beneficial end of an oppressive stick, but it was ultimately still a case of "you'll like what we give you, or else". That's not really freedom. That's enforced pampering.

[Mic]

???? O.o, sorry but i was always free.Seeing as it is a us and them senario here rather say them

Well I for one wouldn't want to live under an apartheid regime (not that the current anc one is that much better). You may have understood me wrongly, but I will stick with the us.

[wisp]

Well I for one wouldn't want to live under an apartheid regime (not that the current anc one is that much better). You may have understood me wrongly, but I will stick with the us.
One bunch of crooked polititions in a goverment is just like next bunch of crooked polititions goverment so not much has changed in that regard :P

[cr@zydude]

???? O.o, sorry but i was always free.Seeing as it is a us and them senario here rather say them


One bunch of crooked polititions in a goverment is just like next bunch of crooked polititions goverment so not much has changed in that regard :P

How quickly people forget what this country was like. While I can agree that the ANC has made some major mistakes while in power, the country is a better place today compared to under apartheid.

[wisp]

How quickly people forget what this country was like. While I can agree that the ANC has made some major mistakes while in power, the country is a better place today compared to under apartheid.

At least i could sleep with my windows open, do things like braai in my backyard without being attacked and robbed.Go to movies at night with out fear of hijacking.Walk around the block without fear of being mugged etc etc...so sure life really is better now that i have to hide behind 6 locks and a security system , two dogs and 6 foot wall with electric fencing every time the sun sets ...life in SA is just Peachy now

[Mic]

At least i could sleep with my windows open, do things like braai in my backyard without being attacked and robbed.Go to movies at night with out fear of hijacking.Walk around the block without fear of being mugged etc etc...so sure life really is better now that i have to hide behind 6 locks and a security system , two dogs and 6 foot wall with electric fencing every time the sun sets ...life in SA is just Peachy now

wow... you live in a dangerous area. Yes there was attempts to brake in at my house to, but they never succeed. Besides, would you rather sleep with your window open knowing other people are being oppressed because of their skin colour?

[Visi_Ace]

Back to the topic and Zuma using the church. I am currently in church for a weekend conference called Daniel conference. The theme is how we can be real men of Christ and make a difference in South Africa through prayer and turning back to God. They gave examples of missions in the prisons where convicted killers turn to God and turn from their ways. Angus Buchan is also here and delivered a very good message along the lines of restoring values and helping to restore the country through Christ.

I wonder what real options are there for South Africa and how we can solve matters like crime, family abuse, greed and corruption. The message of the conference was to push being unashamedly ethical in our workplace, family and elsewhere in our country.

Imagine Zuma was here to listen to this, instead of what he did in the other church.

[Lysis]

wow... you live in a dangerous area. Yes there was attempts to brake in at my house to, but they never succeed. Besides, would you rather sleep with your window open knowing other people are being oppressed because of their skin colour?

I think that wisp was inferring that things were better, not because people were being oppressed for their skin colour, but rather because the police force was actually effective. Our police force today isn't.

[Chuluka]

I know this topic refers to Zuma and the church but I feel a general discussion about anything relating to Zuma is legitimate.

This article (http://www.thetimes.co.za/PrintEdition/News/Article.aspx?id=964172) provides an interesting read.

[onona]

They gave examples of missions in the prisons where convicted killers turn to God and turn from their ways.

Prisoners don't turn to religion because they "find God". They turn to religion because it's a crutch for them in prison; it's human nature to seek out comfort in times of hardship. I've always maintained that one of the primary reasons why people find religion is desperation, a state of mind that impairs one's sense of rationality, which is a predicament many find themselves in when going to prison, as they can feel abandoned by society, and alone. So what better idea for them than a guy who loves them regardless of what despicable crimes they've done? Having an imaginary friend is probably one of the most ideal comforts for a prisoner, especially one on a long sentence.

I also think it allows them to free themselves of much of the mental burden they may feel for their crimes, because religion gives them that wonderfully convenient excuse that "Satan tempted them" or, even better, that they were "possessed by evil spirits", which kinda absolves them of much of the responsibility for their actions.

Nevermind the fact that "finding God" looks good on their parole application.


I wonder what real options are there for South Africa and how we can solve matters like crime, family abuse, greed and corruption. The message of the conference was to push being unashamedly ethical in our workplace, family and elsewhere in our country.

Religion should be kept as far away from the government and running of the state as possible. The moment religion becomes involved, you end up with human rights violations like gays being prevented from being married. South Africa is a secular state, and should remain as one.

Also, religion is not necessary for an ethical or moral society. Religion and ethics, while having overlaps, are separate, and can exist without one another. It is a common misconception amongst the religious that the absence of religion = lack of morals, because morality is totally independent of religious faith, and indeed flourishes without it.

Politicians using religious organisations to curry favour is a cheap and shallow tact that only impresses the uneducated.

[BattleMoose]

Religion should be kept as far away from the government and running of the state as possible. The moment religion becomes involved, you end up with human rights violations like gays being prevented from being married. South Africa is a secular state, and should remain as one.

Also, religion is not necessary for an ethical or moral society. Religion and ethics, while having overlaps, are separate, and can exist without one another. It is a common misconception amongst the religious that the absence of religion = lack of morals, because morality is totally independent of religious faith, and indeed flourishes without it.



QFFT

[BlackMage]

the White Knight strikes again.

[wisp]

I think that wisp was inferring that things were better, not because people were being oppressed for their skin colour, but rather because the police force was actually effective. Our police force today isn't.
exactly...one could sleep well back then

[Sir PaniCore]

Religeon should not mix with government since god or a higher deity is not a proven theory and may not exist it should have no place in government or law

[brazed]

exactly...one could sleep well back then

The policeFORCE was only aimed at keeping the white people safe, and crime in the townships were never fully reported on or acted on. So no, they weren't more effective at all.

[onona]

and crime in the townships were never fully reported on or acted on.

Kinda like today, really :/

[BattleMoose]

The policeFORCE was only aimed at keeping the white people safe, and crime in the townships were never fully reported on or acted on. So no, they weren't more effective at all.

I was under the impression, its worse in the townships today?

[Ch@pS]

I think wisp was talking from a white persons perspective, with that in mind it makes sense.


Kinda like today, really :/

This


I was under the impression, its worse in the townships today?

And this.

[BattleMoose]

Well?

[brazed]

We'll never know. They weren't reported on. Saying they are worse today without ANY refference, aside from apartheid data ( :/ ) is akin to saying I think my foot smells better today than 4 febuary 1997.

[BattleMoose]

We'll never know. They weren't reported on. Saying they are worse today without ANY refference, aside from apartheid data ( :/ ) is akin to saying I think my foot smells better today than 4 febuary 1997.

If that is a response to my initial post, I do request that you read my post more carefully, I will even highlight the bits that I would like you to pay extra attention to.


I was under the impression, its worse in the townships today?

Its quite difficult to bold a question mark, but it is indeed bolded.

[brazed]

Well, things are always worse now than they were, right? People tend to forget how bad things were.

[BattleMoose]

Well, things are always worse now than they were, right? People tend to forget how bad things were.

You are assuming far too much about what I haven't said.

[brazed]

You are assuming far too much about what I haven't said.

errr, not quite. I'm being about as general as I can be. As in 'the grass is always greener"...etc

[Telur]

errr, not quite. I'm being about as general as I can be. As in 'the grass is always greener"...etc

.....because the manure is deeper on the other side?