View Full Version : Are we close to End Of Days?
We have all heard that the world will apparently end on 21/12/2012 (i know we had a thread about this a while ago ) but on investigating the subject it seems that almost all religions and cultures have a end of days prediction although very few a prepared to give a date . I have compiled a list of Bible and Mayan prediction and as you can see they are vastly different but in both cases nearly all of the requirements have been fulfilled.
BIBLE PROPHECY REQUIRED FOR THE END OF THE AGE
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1. EXISTENCE OF A 200,000,000 MAN ARMY IN THE EAST
Revelation 9:16 "And the number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them."
An army of that size had never existed until China's army reached that number in the 1960's.
2. REDEVELOPMENT OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE (EUROPEAN COMMUNITY)
. The nations of Europe since the Roman empire dissolved have never adhered or formed one empire but continue as separate nations, however, the European Union now has 15 Member States and is preparing for the accession of 13 eastern and southern European countries.
3. RETURN OF THE ONE PURE LANGUAGE, HEBREW, TO ISRAEL
Prior to the restoration of Israel in 1948, Hebrew was a dead language. Now Hebrew is spoken throughout Israel.
4. REBUILDING OF THE TEMPLE, RESTORATION OF TEMPLE WORSHIP AND ANIMAL SACRIFICES IN JERUSALEM
For several end time prophecies to be fulfilled, the temple will have to be rebuilt.
Some archaeologists believe that the temple mount is actually 340 feet south of the Dome of the Rock site, putting the Dome of the Rock within the Court of the Gentiles. This may be the court outside the temple that is left out.
There are many groups already working on preparations for the new temple. The blueprints are already done, the temple garments have been made, and there have already been attempts to lay the cornerstone of the temple. The only thing standing in the way of the construction of the new temple is Islam's third holiest site, the Dome of the Rock and government support for such an undertaking. Some possible scenarios for the rebuilding of the temple are as follows:
1. The persuasion and performing of miracles by the Antichrist and False Prophet convinces the Islamic world to approve the rebuilding.
2. The United Nations will negotiate the rebuilding of the temple following a war with the armies from the North (Russia and Islamic forces). This assumes that the war with the armies from the North is not the battle of Armageddon as some feel and that this attack occurs before the rapture or tribulation period begins. The supernatural destruction of the Russian army and Islamic forces will cause an outpouring of Christian worship and zeal amongst the Jewish people who will reconstruct the temple.
3. It is determined that the site of the first two temples is actually south of the Dome of the Rock, and the court of the gentiles (Dome of the Rock) will be left out of the 3rd temple.
A group in Israel called the Temple Mount Faithful have obtained most of the clothing, instruments and other equipment required for temple worship and are actively preparing for the laying of the third temple's cornerstone.
5. APPEARANCE OF THE RED HEIFER AFTER 2000 YEARS
A red heifer will be required to be used in the process of purification described in the book of Numbers. In May 1997 the first Red Heifer was born in 2000 years. Another red Heifer was born in Israel in March of 2002.
6. INCREASE IN KNOWLEDGE AND TRAVEL
Billy Graham was quoted as saying, "ninety percent of all the engineers and scientists who have ever lived are alive today." Air travel, space travel, DNA research and human cloning are all examples of the rapid increase in knowledge in our generation.
7. RETURN OF THE ETHIOPIAN JEWS TO ISRAEL
In 1984, Operation Moses saw the airlift of 15,000 Jews who had already fled to refugee camps in Sudan to escape starvation. In 1991, Operation Solomon flew 20,000 Jews to Israel from Ethiopia itself. A further airlift began in June of 1999, aimed at transporting the last 3,000 members of the Quara Jewish community from northeastern Ethiopia to Israel.
8. THE RISE OF RUSSIA
In order for some end time events to occur Russia will have to be a strong nation with a strong military.
9. RETURN OF RUSSIAN JEWS TO ISRAEL
In the 1970's and 1980's there was a mass exodus of Russian Jews out of Communist Russia. In 1999 the Associated Press reported a dramatic increase in the number of Jewish immigrants from Russia, bringing the largest number of Russian Jews to Israel since the early 1990's.
10. TECHNOLOGY FOR THE MARK OF THE BEAST
Revelation 13:16-17 "And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."
On May 10, three members of a family in Florida became the first people to receive the biochip implant. Each device, made of silicon and called a VeriChip, is a small radio transmitter about the size of a piece of rice that is injected under a person's skin. It transmits a unique personal ID number whenever it is within a few feet of a special receiver unit. VeriChip's maker describes it as "a miniaturized, implantable, radio frequency identification device (RFID) that can be used in a variety of security, emergency and healthcare applications."
Is the biochip the mark of the beast to be used by the antichrist? We can't really know. What is significant is that people are being softened to the idea of a mark or an implant as a means of maintaining security, providing medical information, and regulating a more interdependent world. As attitudes change, fears subside, and people are convinced of the need for such a mark, the true mark of the beast will be easily introduced to the world by the antichrist.
11. PLANS FOR THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT
The United Nations, World Trade Organization, International Criminal Court, UN peacekeeping/police force, numerous UN NGO's, and other agencies are preliminary steps to the formation of a one world government. We now have the communications technology, transportation, and the pro-globalization media necessary to usher in the one world government headed by the antichrist. The increasing terrorist threat and the middle east conflict will only speed up the formation of this governing body as fear and promises of better security make more people willing to give up their national sovereignty for global governance.
12. INSTANT COMMUNICATION AROUND THE WORLD
Revelation 11:3, 7-10 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth."
Television and the 24-hour news networks make it possible for people around the world to see the dead prophets and rejoice at their deaths.
Mayan signs
Sign #1 The Mayan Calendar Ends after 5,000 Years:
The Mayan Calendar is the most researched and oldest and source that reveals how a 5,000 year cycle ends on this day. Researches have identified just how intelligent the Mayans must have been in order to possess technologies which to date nobody alive can even start to comprehend.
Sign #2 ? Sun Flares ? Sun Storms:
Scientists observe the sun and its activities constantly with high-tech equipment ? and in recent times they have made a mesmerizing discovery when it comes to its activities. In the last few years the sun has dramatically increased its radiation energy to levels much higher than registered in a long time. The sun?s behavior now appears to be cyclic and there is a clear 11+ year recurring cycle. Now, a couple of years after the last serious activity increase, 2012 is shaping up to be the next of the 11+ years cycle with much higher activity than already measured in recent years
Sign #3 ? Atom Smasher In Europe:
European Scientists are in the final stages of construction of the world?s largest particle accelerator ever built. In a nut shell, this incredible piece of scientific equipment consists of a 27 kilometers tunnel designed to smash atoms together in the anticipation of discovering what makes the Universe work.
Understandably, this enormous project has caused serious concerns where several renowned scientists have expressed real concerns about flipping the ON-switch. Amongst their predictions are some incredible possibilies, including mini black holes that may be created. The first mega-experiment could produce an unpredictable result.
Reason #4 ? Religious Predictions
Religions of the world have given predictions based on interpretations of the Bible, the I Ching (also known as the Chinese Book of Changes), as well as sections within the Hindu teachings. Amazingly ? again and again in different cultures ? the 21st of December 2012 shows up as a date of significance. Even the Bible reveals this as the date of the final battle between good and evil, known well as Judgment Day.
As we approach D-Day, it may well be that more religious figures will lift the secrecy kept by institutes such as the Vatican.
Sign #5 ? The Most Powerful Volcano on Earth Erupting:
Did you know that the largest volcano on earth is located underneath the Yellowstone National Park in the U.S. ? it is famous for its thermal springs and geysers. Geological experts have had concerns ever since it was discovered there was a link to the volcano and the upcoming events in 2012. The Yellowstone volcano has a consistent pattern of erupting every 650,000. We are now many years past the due date for a major new eruption. Any new explosion could fill the atmosphere with ash, and block out the sun, plunging the Earth into a frozen winter that could last 1,000s of years. Scientists also know that a new Ice Age is due (well past due in fact) when looking at the usual cycles of the Earths history.
What is most alarming is how the pressure under the Yellowstone is building steadily, and some geologists have set 2012 as a possible date for an eruption.
Sign #6 ? Physicists Calculations:
A group of physicists at Berkeley University in the U.S. who use super computers to complete highly complex formulas have been crunching numbers resulting in conclusions that the Earth is well overdue for a major catastrophic event. Their calculations show that if a catastrophe happens, it will impact every living being on Earth ? possibly wiping away entire species as we know them today.
Sign #7 ?- Magnetic Polar Shift:
There is a magnetic field that surrounds the Earth and shields us from most of the sun?s radiation. While this well known and researched, what is less known and talked about is how the magnetic poles (that we call the north and south poles) have a habit of swapping places approximately every 750,000 years. For some reason, just as the Ice Age is over due, so is the cycle for the next Pole Shift overdue? by about 30,000 years.
Of even greater interest, scientific research has shown that the poles are drifting apart by more than 20 to 30 kilometers every year. This is much faster than anything previously analyzed, pointing to an approaching pole-shift. During the process of a pole shift, magnetic fields are disrupted, until they finally disappear. Sometimes they can be absent for up to 100 years.
Comments please and no this is not a religous thread as i am mearly using the bible for prophecy references, I also have predictions from native american hopi indians to the vikings if needed
Is the biochip the mark of the beast to be used by the antichrist? We can't really know. What is significant is that people are being softened to the idea of a mark or an implant as a means of maintaining security, providing medical information, and regulating a more interdependent world. As attitudes change, fears subside, and people are convinced of the need for such a mark, the true mark of the beast will be easily introduced to the world by the antichrist.
Yeah, I don't get this one (One of the many I don't get). If you have this biochip but at the same time you believe in God, will the chip fry or will you go to hell because, although you believe in God, you have a biochip?
Personally I think this is all BS, but it's interesting non the less.
On the 2012 thing (we've spoken about this before) I don't really think anything's gonna happen, although I really hope something does.
Rah_Skill
11-11-2010, 12:34 PM
I have a huge problem with Russia being named the country (http://polish-citizenship.eu/foreigners.html) of the "east". Imo, it was just more Cold War propaganda. If the Anti-Christ is meant to rise to global power, right now it would be from the seat of the American government.
Not to mention the problem with "predicting" something which is meant to be "unpredictable". The way things are labeled, you could interpret each End of Days sign into almost any time in history. Happens all too often with the prophecies of Nostradamus...
Edit:
@Echo, those who do not take it are meant to be killed and are saved. Those who receive it unknowingly will be saved, too. Likewise for those who follow the Anti-Christ and later turn to God.
Scy7he
11-11-2010, 12:44 PM
As long as it gets cold and not warmer, i don't wanna die sweating.
pArkEr
11-11-2010, 01:08 PM
While I certainly think we're very close to the end of the world (relatively speaking), I doubt anybody can accurately predict it, nevermind to the day. That Mayan stuff is absolute bull to me, seeing as they also believed the sun was a god powered by the blood from human sacrifices.
I think we should all be on the lookout for this Antichrist dude. From his first appearance, add a thousand years. So no worries guys, you'll all be dead anyway.
Jaded Star
11-11-2010, 01:10 PM
aren't tattoos also suppose to disqualify you for heaven? I'm so not going to heaven then......:-0
Necro101
11-11-2010, 01:24 PM
As a quick glance at the biblical "predictions" I can see that points 1,2,4,8,10 and 11 are utter bull****.
Lets summarise:
1. EXISTENCE OF A 200,000,000 MAN ARMY IN THE EAST (DEBUNKED)
The largest army in the world is Russia with a estimated number of troops of over 20 million, if we discount reserves the honor falls to China with a estimated troop count of 2 million, approximately 1% of the number needed to validate the prediction. As you can see point 1 is simply not true, all the army's in the world do not amount to 200 million.
2. REDEVELOPMENT OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE (EUROPEAN COMMUNITY) (DEBUNKED)
The EU is by no means a unified state, while the EU may develop into a republic eventually that date is quite far off. The future of the EU will be determined by the "Big Three", namely the UK, France and Germany. Together these three countries control the majority of wealth, trade, population, territory and military. While Italy (hardly Roman at all) does play a role they are by no means a key player.
4. REBUILDING OF THE TEMPLE, RESTORATION OF TEMPLE WORSHIP AND ANIMAL SACRIFICES IN JERUSALEM (DEBUNKED)
The rebuilding of the temple is a dream for many fundamentalist Christians, however the likelihood of this happening is basically zero. The Israel state has no intrest in this matter, Muslim's oppose the project and the timing is already off. The temple was to be built within a certain time period of Israel being restored and that time has passed. Animal sacrifices have happened in Jerusalem for the past 2000 years.
8. THE RISE OF RUSSIA (DEBUNKED)
Russia became a major power over 70 years ago. They have been quite strong over the past 1000 years as well. Currently the nation is in a military decline, however a modernization/westernization plan is in the very early stages.
10. TECHNOLOGY FOR THE MARK OF THE BEAST (DEBUNKED)
The embedded chip idea has been a favorite scare tactic of Christians for the past 40 years, while the idea has been pushed around and trials have happened the idea is also far off. The RFID signals are also commonly known and do not correlate to 666 in any way.
11. PLANS FOR THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT (DEBUNKED)
This one is a joke, a world government will not happen for at least the next hundred years (if at all), the USA, Russia, China and various other states will never submit to each others rule. The United Nations at its best if ineffectual and wields no significant power of any sort. Chian would rather go to war then to submit to Japanese/American rule for instance.
It seems as if there are two major prophesies that still have to be fullfilled according to the bible
1.ONE MAJOR FINAL SIGN OF THE VERY END that is yet to be fulfilled & that many prophets predicted, is the rise of a powerful One World Government led by a bestial dictator who will actually be fully possessed by Satan himself!--The Antichrist! The World will turn to this false Messiah to save them when their economy crashes & the threat of nuclear war forces them to unite in a One World Government!
2.HE WILL COME UPON THE WORLD SCENE with a remarkable 7-year agreement or Covenant in which he will promise the World peace & religious freedom & will cleverly settle the crisis in the Mid-East by working out a compromise between the Arabs & the Jews! The Jews will then rebuild their Temple on Mt. Moriah, Jerusalem, where their ancient Temple once stood, near where the Muslim "Dome of the Rock" mosque stands today.
These ones we are experiancing in at the moment
1. WARS
Matthew 24:6 "And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end."
Rumors of wars in all areas of the world now occur frequently thanks to instant media coverage and the availability of a multitude of 24-hour news sources.
Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."
More people have been killed in warfare in this century than at any other time in history. As the death toll rises in the Middle East, more and more countries work feverishly to develop devastating weapons of mass destruction. Add to that the expanding threat of terrorism and unpredictable dictators such as Saddam Hussein, and the potential for the outbreak of war exists in nations, kingdoms and places across the globe.
2. FAMINES
Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."
As white, Christian farmers are driven out of Zimbabwe in increasing numbers, and foreigners move in to replace life-sustaining crops with poppies that now supply 25% of the worlds drugs, famine spreads across the African continent. The undernourished are not limited to Africa, however. A large portion of the worlds 5 billion people suffers from a shortage of food.
4. EARTHQUAKES
Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."
The number and intensity of earthquakes this century is at a level higher than any other time in history. A staggering number of seismic events occur around the world daily. The earthquake seismic monitor IRIS shows all major earthquakes for the last year. Indicated by yellow and red circles, the seismic events of the last 15 days provides strong evidence of the fulfillment of Matthew 24:7 in our day. By contrast, in the years from 1890 to 1900 there was only one major earthquake in the world.
makes ya think doesnt it
Azimuth
11-11-2010, 01:34 PM
Anyone who believes this apocalypse crap is a credulous fool. It's mostly just shoving existing circumstances into vague predictions of doom, and trying to make them fit. I mean, honestly.
"For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."
This pretty much describes just about every era in recorded history. It's hardly profound. There's also the matter of people deliberately attempting to bring about the specific circumstances of predictions, which is ****ing cheating.
Necro101
11-11-2010, 01:38 PM
Lets do the Mayan thing:
Sign #1 The Mayan Calendar Ends after 5,000 Years: (DEBUNKED)
No it does not, it enters the next cycle. We also comprehend it quite easily, they are utternly primitive compared to modern techniques.
Sign #2 – Sun Flares – Sun Storms: (DEBUNKED)
Yes Sun Flares do have a pattern however even if we have a eruption that is over a thousand times as powerful as the strongest recorded ever before we have nothing to worry about. The only things that will be affected are satellites and power grids.
Sign #3 – Atom Smasher In Europe: (DEBUNKED)
This has been on for the past year already, only misinformed idiots believe any thing will happen, the same reactions occur naturally in Earths upper atmosphere.
Reason #4 ? Religious Predictions (DEBUNKED)
No, they do not, the only one is the Mayan calender and even that may be off due to our dating techniques not being totally accurate. According to the Bible, no one knows the date of the end of times.
Sign #5 ? The Most Powerful Volcano on Earth Erupting: (DEBUNKED)
Only morons have set 2 years from now as the eruption date, now don't get me wrong, the entire thing would be catastrophic however we would have far earlier warning then that.
Sign #6 – Physicists Calculations: (DEBUNKED)
You forgot to mention that the same report is based on assumptions, also it was only accurate down to 100,000 years. Tomorrow or in the year 34,404?
Sign #7 ?- Magnetic Polar Shift:
Yes, the shift is pretty soon (soon is relative, could be tomorrow or in a thousand years) However impact will be minimal. Compasses and devices that relies on them will be buggered but the problems should be sorted out within a year.
Shaderow
11-11-2010, 01:41 PM
All I'm gonna say is if there is gonna be an apocalypse soon let it be a zombie one....
Rah_Skill
11-11-2010, 01:42 PM
Anyone who believes this apocalypse crap is a credulous fool.
Do you mean apocalypse in general (as which is part of Christian belief. Well, in the sense of the "end of days") or do you mean those who believe in putting "signs" to the words of prophecy?
If it's the first: >_> Azi...
If it's the second: amen, I agre (http://patrolp.republika.pl/pomoc.html)e.
Necro101
11-11-2010, 01:44 PM
Do you mean apocalypse in general (as which is part of Christian belief. Well, in the sense of the "end of days") or do you mean those who believe in putting "signs" to the words of prophecy?
Both.
Rah_Skill
11-11-2010, 01:45 PM
Well, like I'm allowed to be Christian, you're allowed to call me stupid, I guess. kodeks (http://karne.pl/kpk.html) :P
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 01:46 PM
Matthew 24:7 "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."
Honestly? Famines and earthquakes in various places, wow talk about detailed.
There's been famines and earhtquakes in various places since the beginning of time. If you use the above verse it says "and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes"
It does not say how much they will increase, how often, in fact it says nothing at all to be honest. Sure the seismic activity has been the highest this century than ever before but guess what? It will probably be higher next century and the one after.
Rumors of wars in all areas of the world now occur frequently thanks to instant media coverage and the availability of a multitude of 24-hour news sources.
Rumours of war have always been around they only appear to be more frequent BECAUSE of instant media and coverage and availibility.
This predictions are all a bunch of bull****. So instead here's a prediction of mine:
Doomsayers will never STFU.
Necro101
11-11-2010, 01:48 PM
Well, like I'm allowed to be Christian, you're allowed to call me stupid, I guess. :P
I don't mind you being Christian, I just believe your religion is foolish. Nothing personal, I also respect your freedom to practice whatever you want.
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 01:51 PM
6. INCREASE IN KNOWLEDGE AND TRAVEL
Billy Graham was quoted as saying, "ninety percent of all the engineers and scientists who have ever lived are alive today." Air travel, space travel, DNA research and human cloning are all examples of the rapid increase in knowledge in our generation.
Wow this one is the best...
PS Are we close to the end of days?
Kinda. Days has been renewed for another 2 years with the option of a 3rd year.
http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/lifetimes/article/1303156
Just so as to show it is not only the bible , although the bible is westerners main source of prophecies here as some Islamic predictitions
Islamic eschatology and Qiyamah
There are various signs (as many as up to 100) given in the Sunnah and Quran for the coming of Judgment Day. These signs can be divided into two parts, minor and major. The major signs include
And you will see people entering religion of God in crowds. (Qur'an Surat an-Nasr, 1-2)
the coming of an Antichrist(evil), Imam Mahdi and then Prophet Jesus (who will combine forces of good, against evil), (Qur'an 43:61)
the blowing of Trumpet and the minor signs will precede them.
the Sun will rise from the West instead of the East.
the Earth will experience such big an earthquake that will cause mountains to crush down, the Earth's inner body will broke out and the Earth would be stretched out.99:1, 69:13-14, 70:8, 84:3-4, 20:105-107, 99:1-6.
Earthquake from the East, The West, and one in the Arabian Peninsula
Gog(yahjuj) & Magog(mahjuj) will be released and will destroy the crops, animals, water and kill everything. Prophet Isa will take all the believers to the mountains and Allah will finally send worm to wipe out the Barbaric creatures.
Smoke will spread and cause non-believers to fall ill whereas the believers will caught a mere cold. Later, Allah will send a cool wind, taking life(gently) of all the believers Leaving only the Kufaars to see the last day till the Day Of Judgment will arrive.
Islamic eschatology is concerned with the Qiyamah (end of the world; Last Judgment) and the final judgment of humanity. Eschatology relates to one of the six articles of faith (aqidah) of Islam. Like the other Abrahamic religions, Islam teaches the bodily resurrection of the dead, the fulfillment of a divine plan for creation, and the immortality of the human soul; the righteous are rewarded with the pleasures of Jannah (Heaven), while the unrighteous are punished in Jahannam (Hell). A significant fraction of the Quran deals with these beliefs, with many hadith elaborating on the themes and details. Islamic apocalyptic literature describing the Armageddon is often known as fitna (a test) and malahim (or ghayba in the shi'ite tradition).
To anyone to thinks all these predictition are nonsense then you really have nothing to worry about but all these religions, all these predictions maybe there is something to it after all
Fredder
11-11-2010, 02:01 PM
Anyone who believes this apocalypse crap is a credulous fool. It's mostly just shoving existing circumstances into vague predictions of doom, and trying to make them fit. I mean, honestly.
"For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes."
This pretty much describes just about every era in recorded history. It's hardly profound. There's also the matter of people deliberately attempting to bring about the specific circumstances of predictions, which is ****ing cheating.
But it (all the circumstances) can possibly indicate that the world is heading towards a kind of boiling point (predicted or not, your choice)? Plus attempting to bring out the precise circumstances, I don't think you need prophecies for that . . . look at what the terrorist extremists are doing. Not really following a prophecy, just going on "you're either for us or against us" policy and trying to physically implement it. Yet, unwittingly you may still contribute to a prophecy being fulfilled, like it or not . . . you'll maybe not notice it in the grander scheme of things . . . IMO (call me crazy if you want I don't mind, to me its a good kind of crazy)
also what wisp said!
Rah_Skill
11-11-2010, 02:03 PM
There's also the matter of people deliberately attempting to bring about the specific circumstances of predictions, which is ****ing cheating.
inorite
Clyde Lott, a cattle breeder in O'Neill, Nebraska, United States (http://ameryka.strefa.pl), is attempting to systematically breed red heifers and export them to Israel to establish a breeding line of red heifers in Israel in the hope that this will bring about the construction of the Third Temple and ultimately the Second Coming of Jesus Christ
Leave it up to America to commercialise Jesus' second coming >_>
PS Are we close to the end of days?
Kinda. Days has been renewed for another 2 years with the option of a 3rd year.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AxBTNrKnDN8/SnMgiSQ0RKI/AAAAAAAAA0k/MibiMBElGYY/s400/jesus+facepalm.png
I can't wait for Christmas Day 2012, so I can proclaim to all my friends (who believed in 2012 Doomsday):
"Bitches got trolled".
Gazza_N
11-11-2010, 02:04 PM
There's also the matter of people deliberately attempting to bring about the specific circumstances of predictions, which is ****ing cheating.
Well, y'know, God's been taking his time, the slacker. We want the Apocalypse NOW, damnit!
I've always wondered why the zealot fundies are so keen to have the world end anyway. A gigantic middle finger to everyone who disagrees with them? That's very loving and Christian of them. Jesus would be proud. Of course, nothing ups the Terror Quotient like impending doom. Makes it easier to pressure congregations into buying you jets and cars and huuueeeeeeg houses with promises that the Lord will smile on them come the Final Judgement.
KraMGarD
11-11-2010, 02:06 PM
I don't mind you being Christian, I just believe your religion is foolish. Nothing personal, I also respect your freedom to practice whatever you want.
Just for the record, Christianity is not a religion *gasp*, it's a way of life. So in effect you're telling me (us) that my whole life is a bag of bull. Nothing personal, I'm just making a useless statement.
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 02:10 PM
Stuff
If you didn't find that funny at all, then you need to get the log out of your ass.
Just for the record, Christianity is not a religion *gasp*, it's a way of life. So in effect you're telling me (us) that my whole life is a bag of bull. Nothing personal, I'm just making a useless statement.
Christianity is a religion, don't even try to pull the "it's a way of life" crap on anyone.
Fredder
11-11-2010, 02:13 PM
Well, y'know, God's been taking his time, the slacker. We want the Apocalypse NOW, damnit!
I've always wondered why the zealot fundies are so keen to have the world end anyway. A gigantic middle finger to everyone who disagrees with them? That's very loving and Christian of them. Jesus would be proud. Of course, nothing ups the Terror Quotient like impending doom. Makes it easier to pressure congregations into buying you jets and cars and huuueeeeeeg houses with promises that the Lord will smile on them come the Final Judgement.
You know there is a way more discrete way of saying that, I am not one for giving the "finger" to anyone who don't share my belief's and I also try hard not to ridicule them and be a jackass (I was like that, but I've grown up since then).
Fredder
11-11-2010, 02:14 PM
If you didn't find that funny at all, then you need to get the log out of your ass.
Christianity is a religion, don't even try to pull the "it's a way of life" crap on anyone.
So is atheism a way of life or religion? Because we can have a long discussion on that one as well . . . :-)
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 02:17 PM
Yes we can but that's for another day.
As for Christianity. It's a religion end of story.
Fredder
11-11-2010, 02:18 PM
Yes we can but that's for another day.
As for Christianity. It's a religion end of story.
And I can say the same vice-versa :-) IMO but like you said, another day
And lets throw the natve american indian predictitions in to the mix
American Indians are a diverse ethnic group. Their languages, customs, social systems varied greatly. One common characteristic found in many Indian nations was an affinity to the spiritual side of life. Out of this came man prophecies.
One of the most fascinating set of prophecies comes out of the Hopi nation located in the Southwestern United States. Many prophecies foretold by the Hopi appear to have come true. Some of these are:
"The Fourth World shall end soon, and the Fifth World will begin. This the elders everywhere know. The Signs over many years have been fulfilled, and so few are left.
"This is the First Sign: We are told of the coming of the white-skinned men, like Pahana, but not living like Pahana men who took the land that was not theirs. And men who struck their enemies with thunder.
"This is the Second Sign: Our lands will see the coming of spinning wheels filled with voices. In his youth, my father saw this prophecy come true with his eyes -- the white men bringing their families in wagons across the prairies."
"This is the Third Sign: A strange beast like a buffalo but with great long horns, will overrun the land in large numbers. These White Feather saw with his eyes -- the coming of the white men's cattle."
"This is the Fourth Sign: The land will be crossed by snakes of iron."
"This is the Fifth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web."
"This is the Sixth sign: The land shall be criss-crossed with rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun."
"This is the Seventh Sign: You will hear of the sea turning black, and many living things dying because of it."
"This is the Eight Sign: You will see many youth, who wear their hair long like my people, come and join the tribal nations, to learn their ways and wisdom.
"And this is the Ninth and Last Sign: You will hear of a dwelling-place in the heavens, above the earth, that shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star. Very soon after this, the ceremonies of my people will cease.
"These are the Signs that great destruction is coming. The world shall rock to and fro. The white man will battle against other people in other lands -- with those who possessed the first light of wisdom. There will be many columns of smoke and fire such as White Feather has seen the white man make in the deserts not far from here. Only those which come will cause disease and a great dying.
Overall, the theme of Hopi prophecy is that the Earth is going to soon go through a great purification and that humanity can make the decision as to how extreme this purification will be. Their belief is that the world goes through a period of destruction and renewal and that we are about to enter into a new age, the 5th world (or 6th depending upon the source).
Other Native American Prophecies
Mohawk Prophecy of the Seventh Generation
According to the prophecy of the Seventh Generation, seven generations after contact with the Europeans the Onkwehonwe would see the day when the elm trees would die. The prophecy said that strange animals would be born deformed and without the proper limbs. Huge stone monsters would tear open the face of the earth. The rivers would burn. The air would burn the eyes of man. According to the prophecy of the Seventh Generation the Onkwehonwe would see the time when the birds would fall from the sky. The fish would die in the water. And man would grow ashamed of the way that he had treated his Mother and Provider, the Earth.
Finally, according to this prophecy, after seven generations of living in close contact with the Europeans, the Onkwehonwe would rise up and demand that their rights and stewardship over the Earth be respected and restored.
According to the wisdom of this prophecy, men and women would one day turn to the Onkwehonwe for both guidance and direction. It is up to the present generation of youth of the Kanienkehaka to provide leadership and example to all who have failed. The children of the Kanienkehaka are the seventh generation
Iroquois Prophecy
It's prophesied in our Instructions that the end of the world will be near when the trees start dying from the tops down. That's what the maples are doing today. Our Instructions say the time will come when there will be no corn, when nothing will grow in the garden, when water will be filthy and unfit to drink.
Then a great monster will rise up from the water and destroy mankind. One of the names of that monster is "the sickness that eats you up inside" like diabetes or cancer or AIDS. Maybe AIDS is the monster. It's coming. It's already here.
Our prophet Handsome Lake told of it in the 1700s. He saw Four Beings, like four angels, coming from the Four Directions. They told him what would happen, how there would be diseases we'd never heard of before. You will see many tears in this country. Then a great wind will come, a wind that will make a hurricane seem like a whisper. It will cleanse the earth and return it to its original state. That will be the punishment for what we've done to the Creation.
I love the last line
That will be the punishment for what we've done to the Creation.
poetic justice dont you think
Please don't let this thread spiral into the "Your beliefs are stupid", "NO YOURS ARE" we've seen so many threads do.
Keep it civil or I'm locking it.
Fredder
11-11-2010, 02:27 PM
Apart from wisp adding more info, it already went that way (indirectly/directly) with the 9th post . . .
On topic: When so may cultures and religions share views like this, surely it must indicate something.
Rah_Skill
11-11-2010, 02:29 PM
Kal, what's up with the douche reply sanyo (http://piloty.eu/sanyo.html)?
It was funny, yes (ego much?), but it was facepalm punny.
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 02:29 PM
You can honestly quote whatever you want with signs of the end.
Most of those 'signs' can be attributed to almost any thing or any time over the past.
They also usually vague so they can be fitted to any thing or any time over the past.
They also ambiguous so they can be fitted to any thing or any time.
Fredder
11-11-2010, 02:32 PM
Sooooo . . . the world is not heading towards hell in basket? I guess the problems pointed out don't exist then . . . its all good right?
Necro101
11-11-2010, 02:33 PM
I point out how wisps first two posts are full of inaccurate statements and falsehoods yet people still take these as *signs*? Sigh.
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 02:36 PM
Sooooo . . . the world is not heading towards hell in basket? I guess the problems pointed out don't exist then . . . its all good right?
What problems?
War? Famine? Earthquakes? Increase in technology and travel? Technology for the mark of the beast? If you haven't noticed these problems have been around since the beginning of time (Except the mark of the beast tech)
The world is full of problems and it always has been. So no it is not heading towards hell in a basket.
Fredder
11-11-2010, 02:38 PM
Nope, I am just saying you can't deny that there are definite problems in the world that only need to escalate very little to cause some serious stuff to stir up. Hell, what about the other thread about living without anti-biotics . . . . can you imagine the global impact of that . . . especially on our continent? :-)
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 02:42 PM
Nobody is denying there are definite problems in the world.
But from going from problems in the world to the end of days according to certain predictions and saying there's a connection is ridiculous.
The doomsday predictions are all a bunch of crap.
I point out how wisps first two posts are full of inaccurate statements and falsehoods yet people still take these as *signs*? Sigh.
I have tried to put as much of a balanced approach to this subject as possible, you may see them as inaccurate others see them as fact ..different strokes and all..that is why i am trying to bring info from many different countries and cultures to show that this is not just a "christain" thing or a Nostridamus " thing as so many think it is but imbedded in all cultures of man
Necro101
11-11-2010, 02:44 PM
Nope, I am just saying you can't deny that there are definite problems in the world that only need to escalate very little to cause some serious stuff to stir up. Hell, what about the other thread about living without anti-biotics . . . . can you imagine the global impact of that . . . especially on our continent? :-)
We have had far darker times in our history, the Black Death springs to mind.
The doomsday predictions are all a bunch of crap.
then why does every nearly every culture, tribe and religion on this planet predict doomsday then ?
KraMGarD
11-11-2010, 02:46 PM
I point out how wisps first two posts are full of inaccurate statements and falsehoods yet people still take these as *signs*? Sigh.
So what do you believe? Would you be able to show us that these statements are indeed inaccurate? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I'm honestly interested. Especially this
The embedded chip idea has been a favorite scare tactic of Christians for the past 40 years, while the idea has been pushed around and trials have happened the idea is also far off.
Why would a Christian "scare" people with this and only for the past 40 years? That's very specific.
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 02:48 PM
I have tried to put as much of a balanced approach to this subject as possible, you may see them as inaccurate others see them as fact ..different strokes and all..that is why i am trying to bring info from many different countries and cultures to show that this is not just a "christain" thing or a Nostridamus " thing as so many think it is but imbedded in all cultures of man
What he sees as inaccurate others see as fact? Then you say different strokes and all?
This isn't different strokes and all, if someone sees something as a fact when it is clearly not, then they are stupid.
Fredder
11-11-2010, 02:52 PM
We have had far darker times in our history, the Black Death springs to mind.
But based on that thread we may have a similar situation lying ahead . . .
Garson007
11-11-2010, 02:55 PM
PS Are we close to the end of days?
Kinda. Days has been renewed for another 2 years with the option of a 3rd year.
http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/lifetimes/article/1303156
:O Win. :D
Cyberninja
11-11-2010, 02:55 PM
Just so as to show it is not only the bible , although the bible is westerners main source of prophecies here as some Islamic predictitions
<INSERT LONG QUOTE HERE>
To anyone to thinks all these predictition are nonsense then you really have nothing to worry about but all these religions, all these predictions maybe there is something to it after all
Okay, I admit....that was way better than the 2012 movie. Jesus and Imam Mahdi tag teaming against the Anti-Christ? A giant worm that iradicates sinners? Win.
Yes, I do see the world ending at some point. But it won't be because of some BS supernatural prediction. Although, I will be the first to admit: Seeing Jesus and friends descending from the heavens on a ghostly ship, shouting "Judgment day bitches. Your time is now" would be pretty rad. I'm more inclined to believe the world/civilization will end because of a natural disaster or cosmic event. You can't deny that mankind is ****ing up the planet. Whether it's destroying and polluting the natural environment or causing social duress between different nations. All those actions, can bring dire consequences. So yeah, I'm more concerned with that, than wondering whether a giant death worm will destroy us all.
Necro101
11-11-2010, 02:56 PM
So what do you believe? Would you be able to show us that these statements are indeed inaccurate? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, I'm honestly interested. Especially this
Why would a Christian "scare" people with this and only for the past 40 years? That's very specific.
It's been used as an argument since before the microprocessor was invented, and by "scare" tactic I'm referring constant crying of how "The End is Nigh!", refer to the OP as an example.
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 03:00 PM
then why does every nearly every culture, tribe and religion on this planet predict doomsday then ?
Why you ask?
Simple, they want to instill fear in people.
Let's look at this
6. INCREASE IN KNOWLEDGE AND TRAVEL
Now if we were to believe these predictions it's saying we should rather not increase our knowledge because we might bring about the end of days.
Or you could see it as trying to make the rest of the junk sound credible by putting in something as obvious as increase of knowledge.
What he sees as inaccurate others see as fact? Then you say different strokes and all?
This isn't different strokes and all, if someone sees something as a fact when it is clearly not, then they are stupid.
Just cause something is in accurate in your opinion does not make other ppl stupid for believing it .IAnd hese are all predictitions not facts any way so believe certainly does not imply stupidity it implies acceptence that it is possible
Why you ask?
Simple, they want to instill fear in people.
Why would they need . do you really think that this was going to last for ever , look around u this planet FUBAR any idiot could see the end coming oneday , and sooner the better IMO
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 03:05 PM
Just cause something is in accurate in your opinion does not make other ppl stupid for believing it .IAnd hese are all predictitions not facts any way so believe certainly does not imply stupidity it implies acceptence that it is possible
Let's get something straight here. Believing something does not make it a fact.
If people want to believe in these predictions good for them they can BELIEVE in it.
The minute you say they see it as a fact then they are stupid.
Let's get something straight here. Believing something does not make it a fact.
If people want to believe in these predictions good for them they can BELIEVE in it.
The minute you say they see it as a fact then they are stupid.
True it does not , these predictions are not cast in stone and they could be way off base , but some of them were written 2000 years ago . Yes u can say that we have had all these signs before but some are still a possiblity . You can accept them for what they are -Predictitions or dismiss them totally , your choice
Necro101
11-11-2010, 03:19 PM
Why would they need . do you really think that this was going to last for ever , look around u this planet FUBAR any idiot could see the end coming oneday , and sooner the better IMO
So you are advocating the mass murder of billions of people?
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 03:20 PM
Let's put it this way. These "predictions" are as vague as anything and can be attributed to any time in history.
If I told you the world is going end when the sun comes up. Are you going to believe it?
The sun will come up tomorrow and it might be the end. The sun might come up 600 years from now's tomorrow and the world will end.
This is exactly the same with these "predictions" they can all be interpreted to fit any time.
So whether you choose to dismiss my "Sun up prediction" or not is exactly the same as how I feel about the other predictions.
Azimuth
11-11-2010, 03:20 PM
then why does every nearly every culture, tribe and religion on this planet predict doomsday then ?
Because it's the most fundamental fact of human existence that we're born, and then we die. Human mythology is analogous with this.
This thread is covered in stupid.
nukehead
11-11-2010, 03:31 PM
These predictions annoy me for one reason: they will always be predictions. There is no way to prove them right. Well, there is one way but then nobody will be around to see it. This is why these predictions still exist because they haven't come to fruition. These predictions will continue to exist until the end of the world, if you will.
The more precise predictions are immediately disregarded once the date has come and gone and a new date is substituted every single time.
Why would anyone choose to believe such nonsense?
I predict no rational answers to this statement... ;P
This thread is covered in stupid.
Keep it civil or I'm locking it.
Are you asking for an infraction?
Because it's the most fundamental fact of human existence that we're born, and then we die. Human mythology is analogous with this.
Is it not then possible to say the same of this planet seeing as all things must die and these predictions are just different cultures way of explaining what will happen in the way that they best understand.You dont have to believe them but just accept that this world will end one day ..how we dont know , or is it that the world as we know it will cease to exist and a new "world" will arise as a lot of cultures predict?
spjt07
11-11-2010, 03:41 PM
These predictions annoy me for one reason: they will always be predictions. There is no way to prove them right. Well, there is one way but then nobody will be around to see it. This is why these predictions still exist because they haven't come to fruition. These predictions will continue to exist until the end of the world, if you will.
The more precise predictions are immediately disregarded once the date has come and gone and a new date is substituted every single time.
Why would anyone choose to believe such nonsense?
I predict no rational answers to this statement... ;P
Is that one way that you mentioned to invent time travel and go forward in future into the year whatever and see? Could prove it if you took someone like ooh I don't know Jacob Zuma who is so credible and all.
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 03:43 PM
These predictions annoy me for one reason: they will always be predictions. There is no way to prove them right. Well, there is one way but then nobody will be around to see it. This is why these predictions still exist because they haven't come to fruition. These predictions will continue to exist until the end of the world, if you will.
The more precise predictions are immediately disregarded once the date has come and gone and a new date is substituted every single time.
Why would anyone choose to believe such nonsense?
I predict no rational answers to this statement... ;P
Ex****ingacatly
Doomsayer: The world will end when the earth shakes more violently than ever before.
Guy: Earthquakes have increased in the past century and still nothing.
Doomsayer: ..... The world will end when the earth shakes even more violently than ever before.
That pretty much sums up predictions of any kind. They like an old pair of jeans you make them fit however you can.
nukehead
11-11-2010, 03:45 PM
Ex****ingacatly
Doomsayer: The world will end when the earth shakes more violently than ever before.
Guy: Earthquakes have increased in the past century and still nothing.
Doomsayer: ..... The world will end when the earth shakes even more violently than ever before.
That pretty much sums up predictions of any kind. They like an old pair of jeans you make them fit however you can.
I predict no other rational responses to that post... :/
Azimuth
11-11-2010, 03:51 PM
Is it not then possible to say the same of this planet seeing as all things must die and these predictions are just different cultures way of explaining what will happen in the way that they best understand.You dont have to believe them but just accept that this world will end one day ..how we dont know , or is it that the world as we know it will cease to excist and a new "world" will arise as a lot of cultures predict?
:|
Of course this planet will "die" eventually. That's just the way of the material universe. If nothing else, the sun will eventually burn out, and this planet will no longer be able to sustain life.
But trying to predict its always-impending occurrence, using a series of (necessarily, I daresay) vague political and social circumstances that could be made to fit just about any era of human existence - past, present, and future - is absurd.
Ex****ingacatly
Doomsayer: The world will end when the earth shakes more violently than ever before.
Guy: Earthquakes have increased in the past century and still nothing.
Doomsayer: ..... The world will end when the earth shakes even more violently than ever before.
That pretty much sums up predictions of any kind. They like an old pair of jeans you make them fit however you can.
LOL oversimplfying the whole thing abit i see, but point taken , Yes ppl have been predicting End of Days forever now and we all still here but one day this house of cards will coming crashing down , how , when and if mankind will survive i dont know , i just find all these things fasinating .All these Cultures and religions thousand of miles and years apart predicting the same conclusion for the planet surely there must be something to it
KraMGarD
11-11-2010, 03:59 PM
Interesting these words, "prediction" and "prophecy". Although both have the same purpose - to tell what will happen in the future - their source of authority for this information is very different. If you're a Christian, "prophecy" relies on the authority of God-given information. So for a Christian, TRUE prophecy is therefore never wrong because it carries the authority of God's truth and character. So in other words, prophecy from the bible will always hold true in a Christians heart. "Prediction" on the other hand, is based on man's ability to determine what might or what will happen in the future and since no one can really "predict" the future, this is often wrong. It's like me predicting that the Cheetahs will win the semi finals against the WP at Newlands XD.
Garson007
11-11-2010, 04:00 PM
11. PLANS FOR THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT (DEBUNKED)
This one is a joke, a world government will not happen for at least the next hundred years (if at all), the USA, Russia, China and various other states will never submit to each others rule. The United Nations at its best if ineffectual and wields no significant power of any sort. Chian would rather go to war then to submit to Japanese/American rule for instance.
I always wonder how people come up with bull**** like this. A group of people will not unite under one banner unless it is in fear of another banner. I.e. The world would need a common enemy. If that common enemy is another group on earth itself, thereby being a contradiction, then the world as a whole will not unite. The only way a one world government would come into existence is if some common extra-terrestrial enemy was found, or we've been successful in colonizing space.
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 04:02 PM
LOL oversimplfying the whole thing abit i see, but point taken , Yes ppl have been predicting End of Days forever now and we all still here but one day this house of cards will coming crashing down , how , when and if mankind will survive i dont know , i just find all these things fasinating .All these Cultures and religions thousand of miles and years apart predicting the same conclusion for the planet surely there must be something to it
No there isn't
Just look at your statement.
All these Cultures and religions thousand of miles and years apart predicting the same conclusion for the planet surely there must be something to it
It's exactly this, they have been predicting this for thousand of years and all different ways and yet over the times they are proven wrong. So how on Earth can you even think there must be something to it?
For years and years people predicted the world to be flat, there must be something to it. Wrong just because it's a commonly held belief doesn't mean anything.
I'm not oversimplifying anything that is basically all those predictions summed up into one post.
:|
Of course this planet will "die" eventually. That's just the way of the material universe. If nothing else, the sun will eventually burn out, and this planet will no longer be able to sustain life.
But trying to predict its always-impending occurrence, using a series of (necessarily, I daresay) vague political and social circumstances that could be made to fit just about any era of human existence - past, present, and future - is absurd.
Take the Hopi Indians predictition then , basic , simple , non political but so far accurate don't you think
I mean 1-8 already happened and this prediction is thousands of years old
"This is the First Sign: We are told of the coming of the white-skinned men, like Pahana, but not living like Pahana men who took the land that was not theirs. And men who struck their enemies with thunder.
"This is the Second Sign: Our lands will see the coming of spinning wheels filled with voices. In his youth, my father saw this prophecy come true with his eyes -- the white men bringing their families in wagons across the prairies."
"This is the Third Sign: A strange beast like a buffalo but with great long horns, will overrun the land in large numbers. These White Feather saw with his eyes -- the coming of the white men's cattle."
"This is the Fourth Sign: The land will be crossed by snakes of iron."
"This is the Fifth Sign: The land shall be criss-crossed by a giant spider's web."
"This is the Sixth sign: The land shall be criss-crossed with rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun."
"This is the Seventh Sign: You will hear of the sea turning black, and many living things dying because of it."
"This is the Eight Sign: You will see many youth, who wear their hair long like my people, come and join the tribal nations, to learn their ways and wisdom.
"And this is the Ninth and Last Sign: You will hear of a dwelling-place in the heavens, above the earth, that shall fall with a great crash. It will appear as a blue star. Very soon after this, the ceremonies of my people will cease.
LOL oversimplfying the whole thing abit i see, but point taken , Yes ppl have been predicting End of Days forever now and we all still here but one day this house of cards will coming crashing down , how , when and if mankind will survive i dont know , i just find all these things fasinating .All these Cultures and religions thousand of miles and years apart predicting the same conclusion for the planet surely there must be something to it
Do you realise how absolutely absurd this kind of reasoning is? Just because whole groups of people over the world predict the end of days it means that somehow there must be truth in it?
The world (and with that I mean the Earth) is going to end sometime, and the only possible way anybody can predict it is through science, and not even that is accurate, because the factors that will influence the prediction can change at any time.
It's exactly this, they have been predicting this for thousand of years and all different ways and yet over the times they are proven wrong.
So far yes but i guess we will just have to wait a see in about 25 months :)
nukehead
11-11-2010, 04:10 PM
So far yes but i guess we will just have to wait a see in about 25 months :)
I seem to remember that exact response leading up to the new years eve 1999... ;)
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 04:11 PM
Take the Hopi Indians predictition then , basic , simple , non political but so far accurate don't you think
I mean 1-8 already happened and this prediction is thousands of years old
Sigh..... Maybe you should stop posting because clearly you are not getting the point.
These things are meant to be vague as to fit ANYTHING.
Our lands will see the coming of spinning wheels filled with voices
Do they mean wheels that speak?
According to the person it means wagons. So what if in say 100 hundred years wheels that can speak are invented, will the interpetation of it being wagons now change to the new invention seeing as the wagons didn't do anything and the invention is more recent.
How can you not be getting it? You can take those predictions and make them fit whatever you like.
Do you realise how absolutely absurd this kind of reasoning is? Just because whole groups of people over the world predict the end of days it means that somehow there must be truth in it?
The world (and with that I mean the Earth) is going to end sometime, and the only possible way anybody can predict it is through science, and not even that is accurate, because the factors that will influence the prediction can change at any time.
I know it will end anyway so whos to say that the predictitions dont come true and it ends as they say ?
Jaded Star
11-11-2010, 04:16 PM
These predictions annoy me for one reason: they will always be predictions. There is no way to prove them right. Well, there is one way but then nobody will be around to see it. This is why these predictions still exist because they haven't come to fruition. These predictions will continue to exist until the end of the world, if you will.
The more precise predictions are immediately disregarded once the date has come and gone and a new date is substituted every single time.
Why would anyone choose to believe such nonsense?
I predict no rational answers to this statement... ;P
This is so the best answer in the whole entire thread!
Sigh..... Maybe you should stop posting because clearly you are not getting the point.
and clearly you are not getting mine either :). these are predictitions possiblities some ring true others dont , likewise you can twist them not to fit ..lets agree to disagree then ok
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 04:22 PM
If you point is somehow putting any credit to this junk then I get it, otherwise no I have no idea what the heck you are trying to say.
These predictions are as accurate as my guessing of the area of a lobster while it is in my stomach.
spjt07
11-11-2010, 04:29 PM
and clearly you are not getting mine either :). these are predictitions possiblities some ring true others dont , likewise you can twist them not to fit ..lets agree to disagree then ok
I actually thought your answers of their being something in it were more academical then being factual. Ie point of discussion as to me the different cultures and their beliefs is quite interesting
I know it will end anyway so whos to say that the predictitions dont come true and it ends as they say ?
If that is your kind of logic in this argument, then I'll answer in the same way. Who's to say they will. There, now the argument is a circle.
Kharrak
11-11-2010, 05:54 PM
There have been numerous doomsday dates throughout human history, with people citing prophecies and massaging them to fit contemporary situations and events. There's always been convenient evidence for each "doomsday". Hell, the vast majority of the time people (a) only use the parts of prophecies that match contemporary circumstance, and then (b) spent a lot of time massaging the rest into vague obscurity that could reference ANYTHING.
Doomsaying is an expression of human psyche - people who fear the finality of something, or find security in imposing the concept of finality onto other people. It's like the guy who, every month, goes around telling people "oh man, they aren't going to give us our salleries this month! LOOK AT THIS EVIDENCE I HAVE THAT PROVES IT!"
Also, the amount of broken telephone that accompanies religions and prophecies is ludicrous. Like people believing Muslims actually think there are virgins for them when they die. It's just an expression! It's like saying "I'm getting out of here like a bat out of hell", and someone hearing that and believing that the speaker worships hell faring bats when he runs away.
Here's an example: The anti-christ? Doesn't exist. At least, not in the way that the vast majority of people envisage him/her. In the bible, the anti-christ simply refers to any one who is opposed, or does not follow the Christian religion. People who are anti christ. Yet people still find a way for "him/her" to work into the end of days predictions.
This kind of bullocks finds its way everywhere.
Azimuth
11-11-2010, 06:17 PM
Also, the amount of broken telephone that accompanies religions and prophecies is ludicrous. Like people believing Muslims actually think there are virgins for them when they die. It's just an expression! It's like saying "I'm getting out of here like a bat out of hell", and someone hearing that and believing that the speaker worships hell faring bats when he runs away.
Actually, you're wrong. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#Muslim):
In a collection by Imam at-Tirmidhi in his "Sunan" (Volume IV, Chapters on "The Features of Heaven as described by the Messenger of Allah", chapter 21: "About the Smallest Reward for the People of Heaven", hadith 2687) and also quoted by Ibn Kathir in his Tafsir (Qur'anic Commentary) of Surah Qur'an 55:72, it is stated that:
"It was mentioned by Daraj Ibn Abi Hatim, that Abu al-Haytham 'Adullah Ibn Wahb narrated from Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, who heard Muhammad saying, 'The smallest reward for the people of Heaven is an abode where there are eighty thousand servants and seventy-two houri, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine and ruby, as wide as the distance from al-Jabiyyah to San'a.
Then...
Here's an example: The anti-christ? Doesn't exist. At least, not in the way that the vast majority of people envisage him/her. In the bible, the anti-christ simply refers to any one who is opposed, or does not follow the Christian religion. People who are anti christ.
This kind of bullocks finds its way everywhere.
Also not entirely accurate. While christian mythology makes reference to "antichrists" in the plural - there meaning those opposed to christians - the "Antichrist" as a figure is Satan incarnate, just as Jesus was supposedly a human manifestation of god. This person is mentioned in the book of John.
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 06:17 PM
Ag bull Kharrak
We all know the anti-christ is Obama
Like geez everyone knows that
/rolls eyes
Otherwise very nicely put. On the other side of the doomsayer you will always find those that believe it.
On the Anti-Christ. Yep, I know it's from cracked.com, but still worth a quick read.
Type "Is Obama" into Google and one of the top three suggested searches will always be "the Antichrist?" If the Web had existed in Ronald Reagan's day, you'd have gotten the same result for him and (likewise for Mikhail Gorbachev).
So clearly there is a huge chunk of the world waiting for someone to come along and fulfill the old biblical prophecy: A charismatic leader will fool the whole world, rise to power, institute a worldwide dictatorial regime and (finally) bring about the Apocalypse. There exist entire religious sects who keep a sharp eye out for the smooth talking sign of the End Times who will trigger the destruction of everything we know and love.
You skeptics can laugh, but know that many Americans who vote in 2012 will be doing it based on which of the two candidates is least likely to be the Antichrist.
The Only Problem Is ...
The Antichrist is mentioned only four times in the Bible, and each time he's described the same way:
"Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the Antichrist." (2 John 1:7)
Yep: The Antichrist is anyone who doesn't believe in Christ. The "anti" is basically being used the same way it's used when we say someone is "anti-war." So anyone who wants to accuse Richard Dawkins of being the Antichrist is actually entirely correct, and what's more, he'll agree with you.
Actually Came From:
There are characters in the Book of Revelation who will help usher in the End of Days: for instance, there is a False Prophet, who looks like a lamb and talks like a dragon (figuratively, we're assuming). And then we have "The Beast" from Revelation 13, which is described as "coming out of the sea" with 10 horns, seven heads, 10 crowns and other body parts that do not even resemble a human body accidentally.
The beast is who is associated with the number 666, by the way. It wasn't until the second century that some dude named Saint Irenaeus started calling it the Antichrist, borrowing the term from another part of the Bible that wasn't referring to it. But even that did very little to change the fact that The Beast would have a hell of a time getting elected to public office since it looked like ... well, a mother****ing beast.
It wasn't until the Middle Ages that the Antichrist was portrayed as a guy rather than a huge multiheaded monster. Thus the Antichrist, as a figure in pop culture and cheap-shot accusation was born. Countless novels (like the worldwide bestselling Left Behind series) and movies have helped push the concept to where it is today.
So to summarize, millions are awaiting what they believe is the fulfillment of an ancient biblical prophecy that is in reality cobbled together from at least three different characters from the Bible, with a little bit of Rosemary's Baby for good measure.
Article source: http://www.cracked.com/article_18757_5-things-you-wont-believe-arent-in-bible_p2.html
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 06:37 PM
But even that did very little to change the fact that The Beast would have a hell of a time getting elected to public office since it looked like ... well, a mother****ing beast.
Well duh, it can transform.
Plus Obama is muslim remember.
So Obama is the muslim antichrist transformer. The number 666 probably represents the split seconds it takes for him to go from mother****ing beast to charismatic leader of the world... I mean USA.
MrDeVil_909
11-11-2010, 07:16 PM
Wow, long thread for only being 6 hours old. I'm not going to read the whole thing, just link this (http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/09/11/the-texas-sharpshooter-fallacy/)in answer to the OP and the list of 'signs.'
The world is going to end when the sun goes red giant. We have a while to worry.
*edit*
I do have one thing to add actually. I find it quite funny that a lot of Christian sects are always predicting the END OF DAYSSSSS!!!! when Jesus, you know, the guy they all worship, said:
Matthew 24:43-44 (NIV) "But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."
Revelation 3:3 (NIV) "Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."
Okay, this isn't Jesus, but Paul:
1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 (NIV) for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
So that kind of precludes any signs and portents.
OllieTheDog
11-11-2010, 08:28 PM
I am going to be one of the 3% laughing my ass off at all the people crying about sh1t that aint going to happen.Same thing happened in 2000 remember?
Rah_Skill
11-11-2010, 08:56 PM
While the other 97% believe they will be doing the laughing, as well.
I'm getting quite bored with the constant "I'm right, you're wrong" Christianity Vs Atheism debate. Truth of the matter is, the only people who truly know the answers are those who've already died and, likewise, we all will only know when we die.BMI (http://zdrowo.info.pl/nadwaga.html)
We could all die and realise there is no God, or we could realise he does exist. There's no point, imo, arguing over it seeing nothing of value ever gets said, anymore. Well, value to those who you're arguing against, anyway...
dammit
11-11-2010, 09:15 PM
Well, y'know, God's been taking his time, the slacker. We want the Apocalypse NOW, damnit!
I've always wondered why the zealot fundies are so keen to have the world end anyway. A gigantic middle finger to everyone who disagrees with them? That's very loving and Christian of them. Jesus would be proud. Of course, nothing ups the Terror Quotient like impending doom. Makes it easier to pressure congregations into buying you jets and cars and huuueeeeeeg houses with promises that the Lord will smile on them come the Final Judgement.
Exactly my thoughts. Gotta keep a congregation quivering in their boots or there's no real urgency to their prayers and their tithing. The tithing being the important part here, for the churches anyway.
I do think a lot of the church leaders do actually believe this stuff too, so they're just sheep leading sheep. Someone bring me my sheepdog. These sheep ain't gonna herd themselves.
x-scon
11-11-2010, 10:37 PM
Do you realise how absolutely absurd this kind of reasoning is? Just because whole groups of people over the world predict the end of days it means that somehow there must be truth in it?
The world (and with that I mean the Earth) is going to end sometime, and the only possible way anybody can predict it is through science, and not even that is accurate, because the factors that will influence the prediction can change at any time.
Just like science has been able to describe the start of all things? :P
Exactly my thoughts. Gotta keep a congregation quivering in their boots or there's no real urgency to their prayers and their tithing. The tithing being the important part here, for the churches anyway.
I do think a lot of the church leaders do actually believe this stuff too, so they're just sheep leading sheep. Someone bring me my sheepdog. These sheep ain't gonna herd themselves.
I will concede that there are people out there that will misuse anything for financial or power gain, but I can not agree with your statement that Christians are made afraid of things to increase their praying or tithing. The whole point of your relationship with God is that you can live more peacefully. I'm not saying Christians have less problems or any nonsense like that.
The God that I believe in is a loving God. If you can't respect the way that I and many others here feel when joining a discussion then rather just stop saying anything at all. Making comments like the above is not very nice. I have never seen anyone here criticize atheism or any other beliefs(or non-beliefs) the way that Christians are being criticized.
Calling us all, including our Church leaders, sheep for a few laughs should be handled according to the rules of these forums. But it won't, in fact I will probably be given in infraction for whatever they can come up with this time.
Bashing Christianity does not add anything to this discussion...
/Rant
On to the actual topic at hand. I did not read through all the predictions that Wisp posted, but I did read through all the replies.
If you take the quotes that MrDeVil_909 provided into consideration then maybe that is the whole point of being a bit vague with the predictions. It gives a general idea of things that should happen for the prediction to come true, but it does not pinpoint the exact time so that the 2nd coming of Christ stays unexpected :P
Sure people here have pointed out that some of the predictions have been true for many years or can be associated with other historic events, but these aren't supposed to be viewed individually. They are a set of predictions that will happen before one final event. All of them have to come true at the same time. If only parts of it came true at different times in the past then it was obviously not the prelude to the event that the predictions referred to. So I guess we won't be able to confirm them until it is too late...
KalMaverick
11-11-2010, 10:54 PM
I have never seen anyone here criticize atheism or any other beliefs(or non-beliefs) the way that Christians are being criticized.
Oh really? I think you need to look properly then.
but I can not agree with your statement that Christians are made afraid of things to increase their praying or tithing.
Is that not what Catholicism is all about? Instilling fear into the people about Gods wrath?
This thread isn't about religion bashing it's about prediction bashing. wisp gave Christian beliefs, Mayan beliefs, Islamic, I think indian and what ever else.
The only thing they all have in common is their vagueness and ability to be interpreted in any way. I mean what is the point of prediction A saying the world will end when event X happens.
Then event X happens and the world is here, then event X happens multiple times over the course of history until one day after event X happens the world ends. Then everyone would say "you see? prediction A said this would happen" even though it happened multiple times.
The point is predictions are useless because of how vague they are.
Sir PaniCore
11-11-2010, 11:38 PM
The possibilty of the end of the world is possible, however, it has nothing to do with any religion.
For example in a few billion years the sun WILL explode just like any other stars. Humans may have a nuclear war, or over-population might **** up the earth. All scientific people.
KraMGarD
11-11-2010, 11:42 PM
Oh really? I think you need to look properly then.
Is that not what Catholicism is all about? Instilling fear into the people about Gods wrath?
.
So are you saying that all Christians are Catholic? It's ok - it's a common mistake.
OT - I've realised I haven't actually commented on the original post. To answer the question - Yes I do believe we are near the "end". I do believe the bible prophecies mentioned in the first post are going to play out and yes, if you do not truly believe in God (not A god, the God) and have never read, studied and "lived" the bible, I fully understand why this will look like a fairy tale or a bunch of toilet paper to you. Prophecy for me, as I've mentioned in a previous post, relies on the authority of God-given information and should be taken seriously by Christians, or shall I say, true believers in God. I do however, agree that predictions are useless, since these are made by man and man is flawed and will never know when the "end of days" are going to be, as nicely pointed out my MrDeVil_909.
Azimuth
11-11-2010, 11:55 PM
Prophecy for me, as I've mentioned in a previous post, relies on the authority of God-given information and should be taken seriously by Christians, or shall I say, true believers in God. I do however, agree that predictions are useless, since these are made by man and man is flawed and will never know when the "end of days" are going to be, as nicely pointed out my MrDeVil_909.
How could anyone possibly say with absolute conviction that the bible is the word of god, though? I mean, it was written by human beings. These days, people claiming to hear "voices" are typically treated for schizophrenia, or some other psychiatric pathology. I've never quite worked out how christians convince themselves that the people who wrote the bible weren't mad.
Also, have you ever considered that some people don't believe in god because they've read and studied the bible?
x-scon
12-11-2010, 12:26 AM
Also, have you ever considered that some people don't believe in god because they've read and studied the bible?
I did science at school, but that in no way makes me a scientist.
Being a Christian isn't just about studying the Bible and knowing everything that was written in it. It isn't even about understanding everything in the Bible. I doubt anyone would ever grasp the meaning of every verse.
Being a Christian is about so much more. It is about knowing yourself, learning about God, developing a personal relationship with Him, sharing your experiences with your friends and growing with them. There are so many stories that I have heard over the years of people who decided to follow Jesus without ever having read anything from the Bible. You could destroy all evidence of the Bible and that would still not stop Christianity, because being a Christian is much more than just knowing a book. Sure, the Bible is considered to be the Word of God, and the teachings we can get from it is very important but just reading or having read the Bible does not make you a Christian or mean you understand anything about Christianity.
Most people who read this will dismiss me as an idiot and ignore what I have said. A few others will find enjoyment in making fun of it, as has been evident in the past. And that does not matter. All I ask is that you stop assuming that you understand something just because you have read about it.
And Azimuth, I understand that you and your sister grew up in a Christian home where you used to attend church, and that you think you know what it is about. I grew up in a home where both my parents are missionaries, and for many years I didn't really "get" what they were on about. I would attend church and pray and whatnot but I never really believed in what I was doing.
I only realised the significance of what they were trying to teach me long after I moved out and lived in London for a few years. All on my own. Without being forced by anyone.
All I am trying to say with this is that I don't believe you really experienced knowing God with the little parade that you had to go through every Sunday as I had to for so many years...
Azimuth
12-11-2010, 12:45 AM
You know I was raised as a christian, and that's all. I've never elaborated any further on this point, and I've no intention of doing so now, but my decision to discard religion was much more than a simple matter of not "getting" it. It bothers me immensely that so many christians (and people of other faiths) adopt this condescending attitude towards atheists, assuming it's some lack of understanding or metaphysical comprehension on their part.
x-scon
12-11-2010, 01:33 AM
I appologise if I came across as condescending, that wasn't my intention. Ironically that is exactly the way I feel when everyone keeps going on about how foolish religious people are for not seeing the bigger picture.
I admit that I did assume quite a bit about your upbringing when I compared it to what I went through and how I experienced church. Maybe one day you will share what really happened to you so we can better understand where you come from with your arguments.
Anyways, this isn't really the thread for these things. I have probably taken it too far already.
Quick, someone say something to save the original thread! :P
KalMaverick
12-11-2010, 01:40 AM
So are you saying that all Christians are Catholic? It's ok - it's a common mistake.
OT - I've realised I haven't actually commented on the original post. To answer the question - Yes I do believe we are near the "end". I do believe the bible prophecies mentioned in the first post are going to play out and yes, if you do not truly believe in God (not A god, the God) and have never read, studied and "lived" the bible, I fully understand why this will look like a fairy tale or a bunch of toilet paper to you. Prophecy for me, as I've mentioned in a previous post, relies on the authority of God-given information and should be taken seriously by Christians, or shall I say, true believers in God. I do however, agree that predictions are useless, since these are made by man and man is flawed and will never know when the "end of days" are going to be, as nicely pointed out my MrDeVil_909.
It's also a common mistake to misinterpret what is being said, It's ok.
While not all christians are catholic, all catholics are christian ;)
http://www.adherents.com/adh_rb.html
And 1.1 billion catholics out of 2.1 billion christians, that sure makes up a whole lot of catholic christians.
But sure instead of replying to my comment you can nitpick at my word choice.
I only realised the significance of what they were trying to teach me long after I moved out and lived in London for a few years. All on my own. Without being forced by anyone.
I'm not bashing any religion here, but you can learn most things important from reading fairy tales and common sense, maybe even a game or two. No religion has domain over ethics and morals, and there are many ways besides religion to learn them.
But it won't, in fact [i]I[i/] will probably be given in infraction for whatever they can come up with this time.
And I'm sure you didn't mean it this way so I might be taking it wrong, but what are you trying to insinuate?
x-scon
12-11-2010, 02:41 AM
It's also a common mistake to misinterpret what is being said, It's ok.
1 While not all christians are catholic, all catholics are christian ;)
http://www.adherents.com/adh_rb.html
And 1.1 billion catholics out of 2.1 billion christians, that sure makes up a whole lot of catholic christians.
But sure instead of replying to my comment you can nitpick at my word choice.
2 I'm not bashing any religion here, but you can learn most things important from reading fairy tales and common sense, maybe even a game or two. No religion has domain over ethics and morals, and there are many ways besides religion to learn them.
3 And I'm sure you didn't mean it this way so I might be taking it wrong, but what are you trying to insinuate?
1 Not even all Christians are really Christians, so I wouldn't say that all Catholics are Christians. And that is a huge part of what gives Cristianity such a bad name...
But I realise those numbers are based on sensusses and estimations from various parts of the world and probably from the Catholic Church itself. In the end, the people who are too afraid to say that they aren't Christian and ones that who fear for their lives if it came out that they really are Christian probably even out the numbers.
2 Who said anything about ethics and morals? Didn't you read the rest of my post? Wait, did I post something in my sleep? O.o
3 Not sure I understand what you are trying to say with this?
I had a / in the wrong position, thanks for pointing it out.
I've been given infractions in the past for ridiculous reasons when I stood up for Christianity where I would have been applauded had I made a joke at it's expense. So that was a statement regarding that experience...
KraMGarD
12-11-2010, 08:02 AM
How could anyone possibly say with absolute conviction that the bible is the word of god, though? I mean, it was written by human beings. These days, people claiming to hear "voices" are typically treated for schizophrenia, or some other psychiatric pathology. I've never quite worked out how christians convince themselves that the people who wrote the bible weren't mad.
Also, have you ever considered that some people don't believe in god because they've read and studied the bible?
Yes it was written by humans, inspired by God:
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17
and
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it." John 1:1-5
I understand if you're a non-believer, this is just another book and this will mean abosolutely nothing to you. This is a guideline for my life and this is what I believe and to some it may sound crazy, but I believe this through a thing called faith, which is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen. A fundamental aspect of a Christians life.
Not for one moment am I making these "statements" to convince or convert anyone to my beliefs or to anger anyone. Yes I ask questions, because I would really like to understand where you coming from and what you believe, I honestly do. I actually did consider your last statement before Azimuth, and yes, I suppose it happened to some people and that saddens me. It could've been because of various factors, things taken out of context or whatever, I don't know.
I am way off topic, I know and I do apologise. I would just like to make one request though - if you do not understand the fundamentals of a true Christians faith and beliefs, or anyones beliefs and what they stand for in life for that matter, please don't go around making wild statements and saying that's bull and useless. Rather ask the questions and try to understand why. Consideration is all I'm asking for..
Gazza_N
12-11-2010, 09:13 AM
Not just Azimuth. I was a die-hard Christian for twenty years before certain circumstances woke me up. I've heard all your arguments, KraMGarD. I was telling people exactly the same things back in the day, and was convinced I was doing them a favour.
You see, problem is, faith isn't enough for some. Eventually it wasn't enough for me either. Some of us require certainty and solid answers to very relevant moral, ethical, and philosophical questions, and the church cannot provide that. No religion can. And most of it's based on SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION. How do I know that Pastor A and Archbishop B and Imam C are interpreting the same passages in the same context? Who's right? Nobody? Everybody? What is the CORRECT interpretation? What is the *true* message? They're all equally convinced that they're correct and that their interpretation is divinely inspired, so it's not a matter of their lacking faith, that's for sure. Their tendency to handwave certain things with "JUST BELIEVE AND CLAP VERY HARD!" doesn't help matters either.
So. Am I supposed to trust fuzzy feelings and intuition (or worse, just blindly swallow everything my religious leader tells me) and hope against hope that, come Judgement Day, I've picked the correct set of interpretations of the correct set of holy texts? I think not. I reckon that if there is a God (and assuming that this God actually fits the anthropocentric characteristics we've assigned it), and it is in fact just, then it wouldn't play "Choose the Right Religion or Burn Roulette" with us.
And that extends to predictions and prophecy and doomsdays. There's no certainty. Just a bunch of vague predictions that can fit anything based on how you interpret them, that people WANT to believe in because... why? Existential angst? A need to feel significant in the grand scheme of things? Because they think their lives suck and they need to hope for something better? Because they feel guilty and need to atone somehow? Because they want to be proved right? I can't answer that. It's likely different for each person. I was somewhat flippant earlier, but people have been waiting for millennia for Judgement Day. The Apostles believed it would happen in their lifetimes. The APOSTLES. The people who were supposed to've been closest to Jesus. We're still here.
And as for Doomsday prophecies being part of every culture, well, you can make of that what you will. Some say it's proof that there is a Doomsday, that it's been seared into our genetic memory. Others say it's just a psychological side effect of living in a wonderful universe where entropy reigns supreme. I tend towards the latter, because that makes more sense. Death and destruction are a constant to all humans, and are kind of a big deal to us, so it's natural that this will leak into all our myths. War's a big deal too, and most (could I say "all"?) cultures have stories of great warriors with superhuman abilities fighting mighty mythical beasts too. Does that mean all that's true too?
EDIT: To clarify my standpoint, I'd probably classify my current philosophy as "agnostic deism".
nukehead
12-11-2010, 09:15 AM
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Does that not bother you?
It's very easy to lump someone as a 'non-believer' but using your consideration at least accept that what you guys say as 'believers' can also offend what 'non-believers' hold dear to themselves. Accept that when you assume the how and why of someone not believing as a trivial occurrence that assumption can be immensely insulting; much like someone blaspheming around you.
EDIT
What Gazza_N said...
MrDeVil_909
12-11-2010, 09:20 AM
Not just Azimuth. I was a die-hard Christian for twenty years before certain circumstances woke me up. I've heard all your arguments, KraMGarD. I was telling people exactly the same things back in the day, and was convinced I was doing them a favour.
You see, problem is, faith isn't enough for some. Eventually it wasn't enough for me either. Some of us require certainty and solid answers to very relevant moral, ethical, and philosophical questions, and the church cannot provide that. No religion can. And most of it's based on SUBJECTIVE INTERPRETATION. How do I know that Pastor A and Archbishop B and Imam C are interpreting the same passages in the same context? Who's right? Nobody? Everybody? What is the CORRECT interpretation? What is the *true* message? They're all equally convinced that they're correct and that their interpretation is divinely inspired, so it's not a matter of their lacking faith, that's for sure. Their tendency to handwave certain things with "JUST BELIEVE AND CLAP VERY HARD!" doesn't help matters either.
So. Am I supposed to trust fuzzy feelings and intuition (or worse, just blindly swallow everything my religious leader tells me) and hope against hope that, come Judgement Day, I've picked the correct set of interpretations of the correct set of holy texts? I think not. I reckon that if there is a God (and assuming that this God actually fits the anthropocentric characteristics we've assigned it), and it is in fact just, then it wouldn't play "Choose the Right Religion or Burn Roulette" with us.
Similar to me in many ways. I'm not an atheist, I believe very strongly in a spiritual world, but I don't believe that there is only one valid ticket to bliss in the afterlife.
With all the people claiming that theirs was the only way I figured they were full of **** and I would find my own.
spjt07
12-11-2010, 09:41 AM
OT, a different way of looking at it.
Maybe the things that are mentioned in the prophecies would be more in your face instead of could it be, maybe it is or maybe it isn't.
What I am saying is for something to be mentioned in the Bible it would have to be pretty big, so from earthquakes etc maybe they are the minor ones compared to the earthquakes that the Bible is talking about. Something so big that it would be obvious that it is the ones that were mentioned.
Just throwing that out there...
Nferno
12-11-2010, 09:44 AM
So is atheism a way of life or religion? Because we can have a long discussion on that one as well . . . :-)
Erm, it's neither. The fundamentals of religion are belief of a Diety and faith in that diety. Atheism is the rejection of the idea of the existence of dieties, so it being a religion would not apply. It can't be a way of life because atheism has no set guidelines to live by.
The closest religion in which you can label as atheistic would be Buddhism as a God is unnecessary in Buddhism. Then again, it's a strong debate which has been happening over many years as to whether Buddhism is in fact a religion or a philosophy, as the teachings of Buddha are not a "Do this or you will not know eternal happiness" instead are a way of life telling you "You can live your life the way you want to, but will be much happier doing it this way".
Buddhists do not praise Buddha, contrary to popular belief, instead pay their respects to images of him, not because they ask for forgiveness, nor to request for help, but instead to show appreciation to a way of life he has given them which has benefited them. Much like people still respect images of Elvis Presley for bringing them happiness in the form of his music.
Buddha was a man who studied religion (of all forms, but mostly of Asian religion) and found a middle-ground in which he agreed and dubbed "the path of enlightenment". He found this to be the most beneficial way of living and spent the rest of his life teaching it to people. He was never a god, nor ever claimed to be one or associated with one. Buddha never intended for his teachings to be made into a religion, but the large following due to people having significantly improved lives from his teachings made it into one.
I'm not sure why I spurted all of that out, but I guess since it was somewhat relevant, I thought I'd enlighten those who wish to learn about such things.
No pun intended. Sorry for the OT.
Continue with Doomsday thread..
KalMaverick
12-11-2010, 10:09 AM
1 Not even all Christians are really Christians, so I wouldn't say that all Catholics are Christians. And that is a huge part of what gives Cristianity such a bad name...
But I realise those numbers are based on sensusses and estimations from various parts of the world and probably from the Catholic Church itself. In the end, the people who are too afraid to say that they aren't Christian and ones that who fear for their lives if it came out that they really are Christian probably even out the numbers.
2 Who said anything about ethics and morals? Didn't you read the rest of my post? Wait, did I post something in my sleep? O.o
3 Not sure I understand what you are trying to say with this?
I had a / in the wrong position, thanks for pointing it out.
I've been given infractions in the past for ridiculous reasons when I stood up for Christianity where I would have been applauded had I made a joke at it's expense. So that was a statement regarding that experience...
1. Ignoring my statement once again, I'll explain for you. You still have half of the christian base being brought up to fear God (Catholics) as I said in my originally. Whether catholics are christian or not that you guys can sort out, whether people who believe to reject the old testament are christian or not you can sort out, whether people who go to church every sunday yet beat their wife and children during the week are christian you can sort it out, but once again you can ignore my original statement.
2. The significance of what your parents were trying to teach you can be learnt anywhere (The important parts atleast). As I said christianity doesn't have domain on ethics or morals, unless what you parents were trying to teach you was about God alone and had nothing to do with ethics or morals.
3. You insinuating exactly what I thought. That because you stood up for christianity you got a infraction, now implying that anyone that isn't a christian isn't fair and just. "Oh let's just give him an infraction becase he stood up for christianity".
RayRay
12-11-2010, 04:06 PM
Religious or non-religious, schizophrenic or prophet... people are people, and when people stop killing people, I'm happy.
OT: I am curious to see the social impact that the Mayan 2012 prophecy will have when we are, say, a month away from it. For example, lets say a had a few shares in various stocks. I would sell them and buy <insert whatever I would buy at that time>. Hell, I would even take that month off work. Now, say 10 000 other people had the same mind-set...O_o You may now use your imagination.
spjt07
12-11-2010, 04:32 PM
Religious or non-religious, schizophrenic or prophet... people are people, and when people stop killing people, I'm happy.
OT: I am curious to see the social impact that the Mayan 2012 prophecy will have when we are, say, a month away from it. For example, lets say a had a few shares in various stocks. I would sell them and buy <insert whatever I would buy at that time>. Hell, I would even take that month off work. Now, say 10 000 other people had the same mind-set...O_o You may now use your imagination.
I would guess not many people will take the time off as it stands. There would have to be a lot more proof about the whole solar flare and proof that it will be so devastating before people let it really interrupt their lives in such a big way because if it doesn't pan out the way they think they will find it hard to get back to where they were depending on how far out they go
KalMaverick
12-11-2010, 04:46 PM
Religious or non-religious, schizophrenic or prophet... people are people, and when people stop killing people, I'm happy.
Sad fact of life is animals kill animals, only the scale and reason differ.
B4warn3d
12-11-2010, 04:57 PM
Meh, I don't think that it's "the end of days" or any of that bull.
why do I say so?
Religious text : “But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.”
As for the Mayan Calendar, The the conclusion of a b'ak'tun, or great cycle doesn't mean it ends. It simply starts from the beginning.
And some text was found where they keep talking about a "great darkness" or that Black will occur. Yes It might indicate the end of our little planet but no...I think it just signifies a great change. That we are entering into a new era perhaps? That we may undergo a positive physical or spiritual transformation? Well I'm hoping for this to be the case instead of the doom that awaits us all.
Azimuth
12-11-2010, 04:59 PM
Sad fact of life is animals kill animals, only the scale and reason differ.
This is a rather inane statement. Human beings are capable of rational, ethical, and moral thought; animals are not.
RayRay
12-11-2010, 05:41 PM
I would guess not many people will take the time off as it stands. There would have to be a lot more proof about the whole solar flare and proof that it will be so devastating before people let it really interrupt their lives in such a big way because if it doesn't pan out the way they think they will find it hard to get back to where they were depending on how far out they go
You have a point, but the media are awesome at causing such a wave of chaos. Call it a domino effect. Take the wall street crash of 1929 for example.
KalMaverick
12-11-2010, 05:58 PM
This is a rather inane statement. Human beings are capable of rational, ethical, and moral thought; animals are not.
Really? Yet with all that rational, ethical and moral thought humans still kill each other.
Point is people will never stop killing each other.
Edit:
This is a rather inane statement. Human beings are capable of rational, ethical, and moral thought; other animals are not.
Fixed
Squirly
12-11-2010, 06:00 PM
I know some people take this really seriously, but I just can't. Even if it does happen, is there really any way to prevent it? By the sounds of it, no. Call me fatalistic, but then I'll probably just say "**** it".
As it stands, this whole "End of days" thing is really a win-win scenario for someone like me. If it turns out to b a load of BS I can look at the paranoid believers and laugh at them. If I'm wrong, no-one will be around to care.
spjt07
12-11-2010, 06:08 PM
I know some people take this really seriously, but I just can't. Even if it does happen, is there really any way to prevent it? By the sounds of it, no. Call me fatalistic, but then I'll probably just say "**** it".
As it stands, this whole "End of days" thing is really a win-win scenario for someone like me. If it turns out to b a load of BS I can look at the paranoid believers and laugh at them. If I'm wrong, no-one will be around to care.
Yeah but I don't know if thats the point that people are trying to make. People are trying to say that if you knew there was something you could have done to prevent your eternal non continuation (can't think of correct phrase without being religious) would you do it?
Rah_Skill
12-11-2010, 06:21 PM
^non-existence?
Also, (unless you're not talking about apocalyptic events and I'm missing your meaning) how can one stop the "apocalypse"?
No one can stop the end of the world.
lwów (http://www.lwowiak.republika.pl)
Either way, everyone's going to die. An eternal life/non-existence (whichever you prescribe to believe) is waiting for everyone.
Azimuth
12-11-2010, 06:37 PM
Really? Yet with all that rational, ethical and moral thought humans still kill each other.
Point is people will never stop killing each other.
Another inane statement. If killing one another was a fundamental human trait, we'd all be doing it. :/
The Dash
12-11-2010, 06:56 PM
I thought that this was very relevant: "Thermogeddon" (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20827864.300-countdown-to-thermogeddon-has-begun.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news)
As humidity rises, sweating cools us less, so we suffer heat stress at lower air temperatures. For now, no place on Earth exceeds the human threshold for heat tolerance, with the exception of a few caves like the Naica cave in Mexico. That is thanks to a fortunate natural thermostat: when humid air gets hot, it rises and causes storms that cool things down.
But there is a catch. The point at which air begins to rise - the stability threshold - depends on how warm and moist surrounding air is. Models predict that as the entire tropics warm, the stability threshold will rise.
Nathaniel Johnson and Shang-Ping Xie at the University of Hawaii studied satellite and rain-gauge data from the last 30 years and found that sea surface temperatures in the tropics now need to be about 0.3 ?C higher than they did in 1980 before the air above rises and produces rain
Buuut, its only in the tropics. Still. DOOM! :p
KalMaverick
12-11-2010, 07:02 PM
Another inane statement. If killing one another was a fundamental human trait, we'd all be doing it. :/
Sure believe what you want.
I didn't see rational thought stop people from making war and while killing might not be a fundamental human trait there sure is a lot of killing going around.
But sure ignore the point of the statement we humans will stop killing each other one day.
spjt07
12-11-2010, 07:27 PM
Either way, everyone's going to die. An eternal life/non-existence (whichever you prescribe to believe) is waiting for everyone.
Thats what I am talking about. Each religion has their own view on the afterlife. People believe what they want and if the thing they choose happens to be wrong while joe shmoe on the left is right with his choice you know they would be kinda bummed a few minutes before they realise they will become a useless void that once existed. If they could find out that is
Rah_Skill
12-11-2010, 07:42 PM
Atavism is so 1870's, KalMaverick. :P
The problem is that people do always have rational choice in every action they do. Sometimes it's harder to control (http://www.piloty.republika.pl/programowanie.html) emotionally driven urges, but one can, all the same. There's always a motivated reason in the killing or a desire because of a social/psychological fault (I suppose one could extend this to say animals have reasoning, too). Azimuth is saying it's a fault in rationality/morality rather than an innate trait.
The problem is, it's not clear cut. You're right - sort of - but wrong.
Any human being does have the ability to kill someone but that would be due to social construct. For instance, someone growing up in a culture where cannibalism, human sacrifice and eliminating those who're weaker are normal practice, death and killing would be fine to them. In a society such as ours, however, generally (seeing we do have murderers) someone won't. Social construction of human behaviour and their development plays a more vital role in determining someone's actions than our "animal instincts".
Thats what I am talking about. Each religion has their own view on the afterlife. People believe what they want and if the thing they choose happens to be wrong while joe shmoe on the left is right with his choice you know they would be kinda bummed a few minutes before they realise they will become a useless void that once existed. If they could find out that is
Well, like I said earlier in the thread, the only people who know for sure are those who've already died and for us to know we'd need to die, too. Unfortunately. Would be cool to know the answer, though. It would stop a lot of hostility in this world...
KalMaverick
12-11-2010, 07:52 PM
Good reply
Ok I admit we don't kill because of animal instincts, well not often anyway.
What I was trying to say in my badly worded comment was humans will never stop killing each other.
Although in my defence I said animals kill animals, and so humans kill humans. In the end it is still true. Whether because of social construct or animal instict humans still kill humans and that will never change.
@ KalMaverick: Humans and animals both have fight or flight actions as instinct. Just saying :)
On topic: The end of the world could happen any time. I will think it best for me to live my life as best as I can as a Christian and if there is an apocalypse or a rapture in my life span, my sins will still be judged and my passage to hell or will be chosen, either way, Apocalypse or not.
Although, I do think we are living close to, or in the End Times.
RayRay
12-11-2010, 08:35 PM
I vote huge party on December 20th, 2012 at 23:00. Who's in?
Squirly
12-11-2010, 08:52 PM
4 days before christmas? I don't know man...
Mr_krinkle
12-11-2010, 08:56 PM
All I hope is that aliens pitch up and say you have been rick rolled:p Joking.
But The world has been ending since the beginning of man kind really. If all these dooms day things were true we would already be long gone.
dammit
12-11-2010, 09:05 PM
You will all die. That is a fact. Whether we will all die all at once or one at a time is another question and, in fact, isn't really an important one at all. Who cares if you die when hundreds of others die or just die randomly? You're still getting the same result. I think people like to have a doomsday prediction because it helps them deal with the idea of death. That death may have some sort of reasoning. That death may be preventable somehow (ie: avoiding the mark of the beast or whatever). That there is something after death.
The best thing to take away from any doomsday predictions is that it is important to live as fully in the present as possible because you cannot be certain when you'll finally kick the bucket. But at the same time, it's important to be responsible. Responsible for yourself (financially etc) and to the environment that you leave behind for others.
Stop worrying about dying and start concerning yourself with living.
RayRay
12-11-2010, 09:34 PM
Dammit wins.
Machine
13-11-2010, 02:33 PM
You will all die. That is a fact. Whether we will all die all at once or one at a time is another question and, in fact, isn't really an important one at all. Who cares if you die when hundreds of others die or just die randomly? You're still getting the same result. I think people like to have a doomsday prediction because it helps them deal with the idea of death. That death may have some sort of reasoning. That death may be preventable somehow (ie: avoiding the mark of the beast or whatever). That there is something after death.
The best thing to take away from any doomsday predictions is that it is important to live as fully in the present as possible because you cannot be certain when you'll finally kick the bucket. But at the same time, it's important to be responsible. Responsible for yourself (financially etc) and to the environment that you leave behind for others.
Stop worrying about dying and start concerning yourself with living.
You almost sound like Richard Dawkins or something. Your closing line reminds me of this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Ariane_Sherine_and_Richard_Dawkins_at_the_Atheist_ Bus_Campaign_launch.jpg/800px-Ariane_Sherine_and_Richard_Dawkins_at_the_Atheist_ Bus_Campaign_launch.jpg
Dammit wins the thread.
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