Lame: Unreal Tournament 3 for PS3 to bring keyboard and mouse support

[Miktar]

http://feeds.engadget.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadget/~3/140782340/

There goes the neighborhood. Now MS need to decide if they're doing it for the 360 or not. I hope to high-heaven they don't. I'm tired of these whiny PC gamers bitching about control schemes on the console, just because they spent R1000 on a 2010233DPI laser mouse to pwnzer noobs.

[Azimuth]

Like, actually, y'know, like, playing FPS games with a controller isn't that hard. Like, y'know, and stuff.

[Miktar]

What irks me about this, is that basically people who have gotten used to the mouse and keyboard simply refuse to accept any other control scheme, not because it may be inferior, but because "they spent years perfecting their aim, and now have to learn a new control scheme".

You know what, that's just tough ****, isn't it? Move over, grampa - let the kids show you how it's done.

Personally, I can play an FPS with mouse+keyboard and a controller equally well, because I've never put much stock in having pixel-precise aim (which is why I'm no longer interested in most competitive e-sports bull****, because it's more about having the DPI and getting the headshots, instead of proper tactics).

A proper gamer understands that the input method is irrelevant. Any control scheme (unless it's done horribly, in which case it is an exception) is just a minor detail to overcome before getting involved in the bigger picture.

My beef with UT3 having mouse and keyboard on the PS3 is that it essentially forces EVERYONE to head to the mouse and keyboard, even those FPS gamers who HAVE NEVER PLAYED A PC FPS IN THEIR LIVES.

Frankly, it is bull**** and unfair, to take the PC gamer tone.

Console FPS gamers who grew up with the genre thanks to TimeSplitters and such, should not have to learn the mouse and keyboard control scheme now, after decades of playing with a controller.

As much as any FPS gamer on the PC whines about the controller being inferior, I wholeheartedly expect the console FPS gamers to do the same think about the mouse and keyboard, because it is DIFFERENT.

Frankly, I'm very unimpressed with this rather naive and short-sighted move from Epic, and it's obvious they're trying to pander to the (wrong) crowd.

Mouse aiming is more accurate and easier, yes, but not "better". That is ignoring the entire concept of control scheme and control affinity, not to mention a totally biased viewpoint without even bothering to consider the other side of the argument.

I think I should adopt a new stance on this to make my life easier:

AIMING WITH MOUSE+KEYB FOR NOOBS, ANY1 CAN DO IT! IT TAKES A RAEL GAMER TO AIM WITH AN ANALOGUE STICK 4 THE HEADSHUTZ!

[Squirly]

Epic VP Mark Rein was concerned that having multiple control methods would give some players an unfair advantage, but apparently those problems have been worked out.


I'd really like to know what they mean by that.

If they have worked out something then I don't see what's wrong with giving people the option. I guess I'm just OLD or something but those friggin' controllers (as used to them as I may get) don't do it for me. Call me anal.



A proper gamer understands that the input method is irrelevant. Any control scheme (unless it's done horribly, in which case it is an exception) is just a minor detail to overcome before getting involved in the bigger picture.


Agreed - my issue is with the picture itself (if I can take the metaphor a step further). For me, using a controller will limit me in the end because even the best schemes on the console end up in tap-aiming as you're trying to go for extreme accuracy. Back and forth and it's just dumb. Things like sniping end up a pain because the further things get away, the harder it is to get the target on that one spot. This just means that games using this kind of control scheme will apply certain ways to work around that - auto-aim or a locking reticule...whatever.

And that's fine. If you like to play like that. I don't mind, there's lots of games which use that (even on the PC) but you're getting rid of a lot of potential for skill and depth as far as I'm concerned. I don't see how giving players the option of using them is bad, even if you end up splitting matches up according to control scheme.

[Etienne]

You can bitch and moan all you want, but the fact remains: Keyboard + Mouse is still the best control scheme for FPS games.

[Miktar]

You can bitch and moan all you want, but the fact remains: Keyboard + Mouse is still the best control scheme for FPS games.

No, it is not. You saying it is, does not make it fact.

[Gammaray]

They just dont want the Pc gamers to throw hissy fits after they are pwned by console players with controls, seeing that the game is gonna be cross platform between the PS3 and PC. (apparently) :)

[Miktar]

. For me, using a controller will limit me in the end because even the best schemes on the console end up in tap-aiming as you're trying to go for extreme accuracy. Back and forth and it's just dumb. Things like sniping end up a pain because the further things get away, the harder it is to get the target on that one spot. This just means that games using this kind of control scheme will apply certain ways to work around that - auto-aim or a locking reticule...whatever.

Professional console FPS players don't tap-aim - they can snipe in one, smooth arc of motion. How you play, doesn't represent how everyone plays.

[Miktar]

They just dont want the Pc gamers to throw hissy fits after they are pwned by console players with controls, seeing that the game is gonna be cross platform between the PS3 and PC. (apparently) :)

Worst mistake in the history of gaming, in my opinion.

I don't want PC gamers on my goddamn console - their attitudes, their l33t haxxor skills - console FPS was just fine until PC gamers started feeling left-out and got themselves (or are thinking about getting) a console.

[Etienne]

No, it is not. You saying it is, does not make it fact.

I didn't need to say anything. It's already a fact. I has always been a fact.

2 + 3 > 1
Keyboard + Mouse > Controller

My logic is sound.

[Miktar]

I didn't need to say anything. It's already a fact. I has always been a fact.

2 + 3 > 1
Keyboard + Mouse > Controller

My logic is sound.

No, it is not a fact.

Keyboard + Mouse is not superior to a controller with dual analogs. Neither is better than the other. It is a matter of context, control affinity as well as tacit ability.

Stop being such a close-minded git, damn you! :P

[dislekcia]

You've clearly never seen console players do perfect headshots on the fly, while moving full speed... See, what an analogue stick gives you is regular, smooth movement. You don't twitch aim like you do with a mouse, you slide your crosshair to inevitable death for your opponent... If you're to slow on the trigger to make the resulting shot, tough. That's the same thing as not being pixel-accurate with a mouse.

Honestly, if you're trying to aim without moving your character at the same time on a console, shame. You don't tap, you slide. You don't twitch, you lure. You don't do everything NOW NOW NOW! You plan a little more.

Oh how terrible.

-D

-edit- Whoa, Miktar already pwnt what I was going to say...

[Miktar]

Forget it, dislekcia. I get the feeling we could explain with diagrams and flowcharts, not to mention images showing vectors and velocities, and certain people would still refuse to acknowledge that the control scheme is only that - the control scheme.

What is it with PC gamers and always having to be the "better" of the options? "PC Games are > Console games!" "PC controllers > Console controllers!" "PC Online Gaming > Console Online gaming!"

It's like you have to leave your objectivity at the door when you pick up your computer . :/

I swear, playing Quake 3 online on the PS2 was a better experience if only because it left the "leet" back on the PC servers where they belong.

[Etienne]

Hey! How dare you call me close-minded? :P

I've been playing FPS games on the console ever since Timesplitters was released. Dual analogue sticks are good, but I have yet to see someone pull off some of the stunts with a controller that I've seen on Quake 3 demos.

[Miktar]

Hey! How dare you call me close-minded? :P

I've been playing FPS games on the console ever since Timesplitters was released. Dual analogue sticks are good, but I have yet to see someone pull off some of the stunts with a controller that I've seen on Quake 3 demos.

Look harder. Youtube is a good place to start. Check out some Halo stunt videos.

[Etienne]

Oh, and one final point before I go home...

If a mouse and keyboard isn't superior to a controller, then why do all the game companies have to "dumb down" the mouse and keyboard controls so that it will be balanced when playing vs. controller players? Surely they should not spend time with this balancing if the controller is just as good as the m+kb?

I'm going home, punks.

Cheers.

[Miktar]

*sighs*

A mouse and keyboard is not superior to a controller, but different.

All game companies do not "dumb down" the mouse and keyboard controls so that it will be balanced when playing vs a controller - in fact, such a game does not exist. Cite? You can't.

In Shadowrun, the first cross-platform FPS, the PC version has perfect PC style FPS controls, exactly as PC gamers would expecting them.

Shadowrun doesn't even try to "up" the console players by giving them auto-aiming. Instead, the *balance* of the game has been reworked by using interesting spells, classes and movement options to give the PC gamers a chance against the console gamers, and *vice versa*.

Console FPS players have their own advantages, gained specifically from having such an analogous input device. PC FPS players have their own advantages, gained specifically from having such an absolute input device.

What I'm saying is, is that neither is superior, but obviously both have strengths and weaknesses that come into play when you get down to the design of the game.

God - this is like comparing Skateboarding and Rollerblading, trying to convince the one side that the other is "superior". It is not. Skateboarding is not "superior" to Rollerblading, or vice versa. Both are *different*, both have pros and cons.

This is not rocket science, people. Stop showing how ignorant you are.

[Etienne]

Shadowrun is the flagship title for the Games for Windows - LIVE service that allows Windows Vista PC users to be fully integrated into Xbox Live. Due to this integration, FASA has decided to make several changes to try and create a more balanced competition between the Xbox 360 and PC versions. Because of some of the lack of 'pixel-accuracy' with the Xbox 360 analog thumbstick, the designers have included an aim-assisting technology, which basically interpolates the player's movement and causes the reticle to stay over an enemy player like a weak magnet. In addition, FASA has implemented a feature which causes the crosshair to expand during quick movements, thus lowering the player's accuracy, making it impossible to quickly turn and maintain accuracy, reducing the potential advantage of playing with a mouse.[5][6] PC players, who have a more sensitive control scheme, are able to turn significantly faster than their controller brethren and would have gained an unfair advantage. Many believe this defeats the purpose of having a separate version for the PC platform and that it is forcing PC players to play it like a console game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun_%282007_video_game%29#Differences_betwee n_PC_and_Xbox_360_Versions

Balancing in UT3:

"I checked with Steve Polge [the lead designer] and he said that YES we are supporting keyboard and mouse in Unreal Tournament 3 on PS3," Rein announced via the official UTIII forums.



"He is confident we are doing it in a way that will be balanced without feeling "gimped" for either side.
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6711&Itemid=9

There, I cited. I can get more for you in the morning. I'm really going home now.

[Miktar]

You just confirmed everything I said, actually. Thanks.

However, the quote you cited from Wikipedia is incorrect. It is a perception opinion, and not a factual examination of the points. It may be an opinion that echos your sentiment, but that doesn't make it a fact.

The argument they have is that turning speed is the *sole* defining difference between PC and console controls, with higher turning speed being the obvious winner. It ignores the benefits of a relative input vs absolute input, and generally approaches the idea with the ignorance I expect from a PC gamer who's too stupid to think beyond his mousepad.

However, on the topic of UT3 and keyb+mouse support: I think it's the worst mistake Epic has ever made, and they are being incredibly short-sighted and naive. If you want to talk about *that*, that's another topic.

But I maintain, and will continue to maintain, that keyboard + mouse is not superior to a controller.

If someone disagrees, they're going to have to ****ing prove it.

Citing examples of developers who *get it wrong* when trying to balance PC vs Console doesn't help either.

Try to examine the idea from a logical standpoint, removing the mouse cord wrapped around your balls. (Removed, because I'm supposed to be nice on these forums, no matter how stupid the people are).

[CaptainCrunch]

Personally being from a predominantly PC gaming background i'm generally in favour of the mouse/kb control scheme for action FPS titles, but i'm not opposed to console controls...i'm slowly getting used to it playing GOW/GRAW2/Halo2.

When it comes down to it, the mouse/kb combo is clearly superior with regards to pin point accuracy and high paced reflex oriented gameplay and this helps in the competitive arena (those console players who refuse to accept/admit this are just as irritating and naive as the FPS pc cronies who believe console controls suck in every situation), especially with games like Quake/UT.

For action/adventure rpg's like BioShock or tactical shooters like GRAW2/R6:Vegas, console controls are great, because the focus is more on other aspects like strategy, tactics and stealth.
Although i'm sure you also get console aliens with ridiculously accurate aim with such a controller as well.

I agree, giving mouse/kb access for UT3 on the PS3, will alienate the console following as it would give a clear advantage to those mouse/kb players in a competitive situation...for that specific game.

However, if they(not Epic specifically) want to do the whole cross-platform competitive thing with such a game, they're gonna have to do something like this to "level the playing field".

Maybe if they introduced some Unreal Championship type gameplay into the fold, they didn't have to do this?

[brazed]

Why do you bother Miktar? Really? I admit that I used to think precisely the same thing, long ago, before I ever touched a console. After every single platformer and Gears and fighting game I've played on a console, I realised that it's a silly argument. Different games play differently.

It's quite stupid, really. A mouse and keyboard changes when you move from an adventure game to a fps or to a rts. Saying controllers are better or worse than a keyboard and mouse is as silly as saying the controls of a rts is better than those of a fps. You take game for game and see how the controls are implemented. That's it.

[Miktar]

Thanks to Etienne: http://shadowrun.com/backstage/controller_balancing.htm



Controller Balancing
Sage Merrill: Game Designer

Console vs PC in a shooter?!? How are you going to balance that?!

That is exactly what the design team for Shadowrun™ was thinking when we realized we wanted to have cross-platform play between the Xbox 360® and players using Windows Vista™. In this article I’ll walk you through the process we went through and some of our general design philosophy.

So how do you balance a shooter where console and PC players can play against each other? Controller vs. mouse plus keyboard, which is better? It’s a question that has been on gamers' minds ever since shooters started appearing on consoles. Obviously the mouse is superior, right? I mean the mouse is designed as a hyper-sensitive pointing device and has been refined over the years specifically for that purpose. We all know that the most important element in any shooter game is the ability to quickly get your crosshair over the enemy and pull the trigger. So given that, it’s obvious that the mouse will win every time in a fire fight, regardless of the game, right? Wrong. Don’t misunderstand me, that is exactly what every single member of the design team thought, including me, until we actually tried it. So, what actually happened when we played our first cross-platform game? The controller players trounced the mouse/keyboard players. It wasn’t even close; the mouse players got stomped on. Over and over. So what happened? Did the mouse players just suck? Or was the controller actually a superior aiming device? Short answer: the mouse is better at aiming, but the controller is better at gaming. Long answer: read on.

If you’re even bothering to read this, then you’re probably a gamer of some kind. Being a gamer, you know that good controls are essential to any game. As designers, we want the controls to feel like they are an extension of the player. If the player is blaming the controls for their failures, then we have done something wrong. Additionally, mapping precise aiming control to the sticks on a controller is not a simple problem. There are very few console shooter games that do this well, and even fewer that manage to make it feel like an extension of your will. The design team knew good console controls were going to take some serious time and effort to get right, so we set out to do that first. Lucky for us, some of the team members worked on the original Halo®, so we had that going for us from the start. I’ll spare you the technical details, but it basically breaks down like this:

The Xbox 360™ controller is awesome; it is probably the best console controller to date (Ignoring its D-pad, which sucks). The resolution on each stick axis is something like 64K, plenty of resolution to give precise aiming on the screen. Unfortunately the throw distance on the sticks (throw distance = distance from neutral to pegged) is so small that most humans simply don’t have the motor skills to utilize it. To help alleviate this, and make the controls feel “right,” we do a bunch of tricks to essentially enlarge the stick throw area. What exactly do we do? We map the sticks to a curve so that most of the area is used for micro movement and only the very edge is used for large turns. We also bend the weapon ray a bit within the crosshair (auto-aim). There are a few other proprietary tricks we do, but I can’t tell you the specifics. The point is that we do a bunch of extra work and tuning to make the controls feel good with a 360 controller. So we did all that work. I spent months tuning and refining the 360 controls, until the team was happy with the results.

So once we have console controls that we’re happy with, we start implementing the mouse/keyboard controls. At this point we were still paranoid that the mouse was going to “own”, so we put in all kinds of extra code to help balance the game play. Meaning that we removed all the controller assistance, and auto-aiming stuff. We also added the concept of accuracy “blow out” from quick turning. Let me explain. In our game we use an accuracy model on the weapons, meaning that if you hold down the trigger or run or jump while firing a weapon you will be less accurate. This is similar to any of the Clancy games, or Counter-Strike. So for the mouse we also added the idea that if you spin around 180 degrees very quickly, your weapon will be less accurate than if you stood still and fired. We take a guess at some values and go into the lab to see how it plays.

To everyone’s surprise, the mouse players got owned. Ok, so we overdid the numbers, no big deal. We made some tweaks and tried it again. Same result. This cycle continued until we had everything (auto-aim, targeting assistance, and accuracy) turned back on for the mouse. It was a lot closer, but the mouse players were still losing. WTF? Did the mouse players just suck? No, some of our testers play semi-professional gaming, so we knew they didn’t totally suck. (In fact, they recently dominated in a shooter tournament at PAX.) Was it because our game plays so much differently than a standard shooter? Partially, but we also found a bug. The mouse players were getting slightly more recoil when shot, and this caused them to lose most of their fire fights. So we fixed that, and the mouse players finally started to win. So now we knew we were close to having a balanced game.

Again, we turned off all the targeting assistance stuff for the mouse, and tested. It was pretty even. The mouse players were a little better at long range combat, but the controller players were better close in. So what is it about our game that makes it possible for controller players to hold their own? Two things: 1) we do some things to assist targeting with the controller so you don’t have to be pixel-precise. 2) Easy access to all the other abilities and powers. No one is disputing the fact that the mouse is a superior aiming device for the standard shooter, but in our game it's not all about how fast can you get your crosshair on the head of your opponent. That’s been done, and frankly is not all that exciting anymore. Shadowrun is a tactical shooter, it’s all about the situation and whether or not you are set up to take advantage of it. If you find yourself in combat where you don’t have the advantage, perhaps you should consider some counter-move or quick retreat. It's always better to live to fight another day. The controller is designed to give players quick and fluid access to all the game's controls. It also gives players analog control of movement speed. This means that they are able to maneuver around the map much more effectively than the mouse players. Therefore, they are better at close combat.

So, in the end the mouse is better at aiming and the controller is better at gaming. No big surprise, since that’s exactly what they were designed to do. Some will say that the work we do to make the controller aiming feel good is basically cheating, and that it's not true “skill” that helps them win. From one perspective that might be true, but you have to look at our goal. We want to level the playing field between PC and console. Players of equal skill should be able to play however they want to, and enjoy the experience. In the end, its not about which control scheme is better, it’s about player preference. What is more comfortable for you, and do you play better with the controller or the mouse/keyboard?

-Sage

[Headshot]

What irks me about this, is that basically people...
In my opinion, that was pretty much /thread.
:P
Everything else is just bashing your head against the walll.

[Magon]

"Players of equal skill should be able to play however they want to, and enjoy the experience."
This line from Miktar is a good description of gaming, but reffering to the thread's topic you can see UT is no longer about enjoying the experience and is now about pure competitiveness.

[Miktar]

"Players of equal skill should be able to play however they want to, and enjoy the experience."

This line from Miktar is a good description of gaming, but reffering to the thread's topic you can see UT is no longer about enjoying the experience and is now about pure competitiveness.

Thank you.

[Chevron]

My beef with UT3 having mouse and keyboard on the PS3 is that it essentially forces EVERYONE to head to the mouse and keyboard, even those FPS gamers who HAVE NEVER PLAYED A PC FPS IN THEIR LIVES.


The article states that multiple input methods will be supported. You don't need to use the kb+m combo if you don't want to. So please tell me how it would alienate anyone?

[kHayne]

I'm lost too, Chev. If m+k is not superior to analog controller, y'all console vet's should be having no issues with going up against a mousetard. Amirite?

[Miktar]

I actually only just realized that they would be supporting the controller too: I thought they would be enforcing keyb controls.

But I digress:

I was thinking along the lines that keyboard and mice players on the UT3 PS3 servers *would* pwn the controller players, because UT3 has an emphasis on accuracy of aim over the elegance of movement.

Compare Unreal Championship 2 vs Unreal Tournament 2005, and you'll see what I mean about aim vs movement.

However, in light of reading that article by Sage, I'm not so sure which way it will swing anymore.

I get the feeling that if Epic doesn't doctor either control scheme too much, I may not have anything to worry about. I think, provided UT3 isn't overly focused on the l33t headshots, that console controller players may just be able to hold their own regardless.

[Miktar]

I'm lost too, Chev. If m+k is not superior to analog controller, y'all console vet's should be having no issues with going up against a mousetard. Amirite?

You didn't read this thread.

I reiterated, time and time again, that the design of the game, not the method of control, is the real determining factor of which control scheme ends up being the preferred method for players.

Certain games are *designed* to take advantage of what the keybmouse has to offer, whereas others are *designed* to maximize the strengths of the dualsticks.

What I am worried about, is that UT3 may be designed more for the one, and not for the other, which would alienate players.

Dhur.

[Darkmag]

I wanna see a console gamer finish a quake 3 defrag lvl smooth. If they can do that then debate over. In my opinion fps games are easier to play on a kb+m than an analog and ive played fps games on consoles most of them had zero fuctionality till Halo came and really changed everything.

Halo`s control settings made it easier for FPS games to be played on console alot easier but still I feel as thou the analog doesn`t have the precision of a mouse and keyboard. but the same goes of kb+m racing,fighting, SPORT games are much easierly played on a analog controller

[dislekcia]

You know, having watched pro-level UT at the various carousel events, I don't see how accuracy over large distances (ie, what a mouse was designed to do) is going to help you all that much. Most of the domination gameplay (ie, control the armor spawns, time the shield belt, etc) centered around battling each other from one or two chokepoints at very long range, using the movement keys to strafe in and out of cover and taking potshots with a largely immobile mouse...

Then again, maybe I just don't get mouse-FPS play anyway. I've always played on a ridiculously high sensitivity and totally hate all this lame all-the-way-across-the-pad to even turn slightly crap. If you want to play turret levels, stop playing FPS games.

-D

[Azimuth]

I wanna see a console gamer finish a quake 3 defrag lvl smooth. If they can do that then debate over. In my opinion fps games are easier to play on a kb+m than an analog and ive played fps games on consoles most of them had zero fuctionality till Halo came and really changed everything.

Halo`s control settings made it easier for FPS games to be played on console alot easier but still I feel as thou the analog doesn`t have the precision of a mouse and keyboard. but the same goes of kb+m racing,fighting, SPORT games are much easierly played on a analog controller

Hey, here's a hot tip. Next time, read the thread before posting and looking like a 'tard.

[Darkmag]

Hey, here's a hot tip. Next time, read the thread before posting and looking like a 'tard.

OK skipping past the boring woman again, I sure her "Me hav bigger club than u" speech was rivetingly exciting.

I wonder how many console owner will actualy buy a keyboard and mouse, I mean a console is something you put in your living room and you casually play games in a relaxing and comfortable postion.

A keyboard and mouse you have to jerk a table around sit up straight to get nice levrege on the mouse. which in a living room doesn`t just look stupid it feels uncomfy? I just do see it happening

[Chippit]

Then again, maybe I just don't get mouse-FPS play anyway. I've always played on a ridiculously high sensitivity and totally hate all this lame all-the-way-across-the-pad to even turn slightly crap. If you want to play turret levels, stop playing FPS games.
And to think I thought myself a rarity in that regard. Nothing seemed more retarded to me than having to use your pad three times over just to turn around. FPS titles were always about movement and tactics to me than about uber leet headshot accuracy. Which explains why UT was always my FPS of choice

[Azimuth]

I'm with Chippit and Dis on this one. Twitch aiming is just silly, especially in fast-paced games like UT. Headshots are mostly happy accidents for me. I'm quite happy to bulldoze everyone with a flak cannon to the stomach while double jumping like a march hare.

[Nandrew]

I'm with Chippit and Dis on this one. Twitch ... you know what, I'm boring. lol. Insert random words here. Oh, man, I'm BORING! Blahblahblah boredom zzzz *snork* Whu?

And that is all I have to say on the matter.

lol ur boring Azzi, kthx.

So, fellow forumites: if I'm right, it's all a war on bad attitudes more than control preference, correct? Or have I missed the point?

[H1TMAN]

I hope I dont see an article in the next nag mag. about this topic lol. I think i read enough.

[FoX]

There is only ONE game that is realy good to play with a controler an that is Time Splitters(PS2), and having played PC fps for 12 jears that game was a **** lode of fun.

[Miktar]

I wanna see a console gamer finish a quake 3 defrag lvl smooth.

What did I just say, about things DESIGNED for one control scheme, and not for another? Were you paying attention?

That's like saying you want to see a F1 car finish a Dakar Rally.

[Miktar]

lol ur boring Azzi, kthx.

So, fellow forumites: if I'm right, it's all a war on bad attitudes more than control preference, correct? Or have I missed the point?

If there is one thing gaming needs less of, is attitude.

Basically, if someone tells me "I prefer the keyboard and mouse", GOD SPEED to them.

But if someone says "keybmous > controller!" then it's banhammer time, because frankly, that kind of idiocy shouldn't have to exist.

[Miktar]

There is only ONE game that is realy good to play with a controler an that is Time Splitters(PS2), and having played PC fps for 12 jears that game was a **** lode of fun.

TimeSplitters is a prime example of an FPS game *designed* with a dualstick controller in mind. The gameplay, the enemies, the level flow and weapon structure were all designed to maximize what a controller can do.

But try explaining that to a PC-only FPS gamer, and they just look at you as if you're dropped from Mars.

[kHayne]

I reiterated, time and time again, that the design of the game, not the method of control, is the real determining factor of which control scheme ends up being the preferred method for players.

...

It's Unreal Tournament. What control scheme would you expect to be preferred, by a traditionally pc-platform demographic?
They'd be retarded not to release a console port with keyboard/mouse support.

Seriously guy.

[Miktar]

...

It's Unreal Tournament. What control scheme would you expect to be preferred, by a traditionally pc-platform demographic?


Seriously guy.

These days, I'm not sure.

What do you think?

Epic said they're 'changing the control scheme' to balance it between keybmouse and controller... I wonder what that *means* exactly...

The thing is, if Unreal Tournament went the Unreal Championship route, I could see the PC-centric FPS gamers not being very happy.

[kHayne]

The design philosophy of Unreal Tournament has always been to cater to high reflex twitch-gaming. It's fast paced. Yes, competitive titles like Gears of War and Halo can work great with a controller for the same end purpose, with the fact that they are designed virtually exclusively with the console and controller in mind.
It's like comparing NASCAR and Formula 1. You drop a Nascar stock car on a Formula 1 track, odds are it's not going to be able to keep up in the turns at all. But for the purposes it's designed, racing on an oval track, it's perfect, and would in all likelihood leave a Formula 1 car in the dust on it's home turf.
I honestly don't see them successfully 'balancing' the control issue without having to fundamentally rework the entire premise of the game itself. As far as i know that's not a a possibility since they probably want pc and console players to be able to play together (which is, after all, the capitalist thing to do).
So yes. Snide comments and whatnot aside, it's not about epeen and bruising analog-cotroller fans' egos, but reality. I'll go out on a limb here and say that mouse/keyboard users will retain an edge as a result. They're sitting in an F1, on Hockenheim, with a bunch of Nascars in the pack.

[ioiiooio]

Ooh, gosh this is one looong thread so didn't read all of it.... BUT BOY AM I GLAD THEIR DOING IT!!!!! It just goes to show there is a significant demand for K&M on the console. I do hope they will have special tournaments between K&M and controllers take the best of both worlds and put them up against each other....

VIVA REVOLUTION!!!!

[Miktar]

Yes, kHayne. You've gone and stated the obvious quite clearly for everyone to see and even recycled my F1 car analogy deftly: but you didn't answer my question:

What exactly is Epic doing to the gameplay and controls, to "balance it" as they said they will? Are they going to neuter the gameplay on the keybmouse side, like Chevron thinks they did with Shadowrun, or are they going to beef the controller side with uber autoaim, which will **** the PC gamers off?

I know that UT has always been (in the eyes of most people) twitch-gameplay. Ironically, some of the best UT players in the country would disagree with that statement, but I'm not going to argue their side for them. I'm also an oldschool UT fan and I own every single release, including Championship 1 and 2 - so I'm not exactly a newb here, y'know.

But as you say: if keybmouse players retain an edge, surely that means the console FPS gamers, who constitute the LARGEST PART of the buying power on the PS3, are going to get annoyed and not actually buy the game, which will lead to the only decent FPS on the PS3 before Killzone 2 suffering a premature death?

The tiny percentile of PC gamers who get a PS3 to play with keybmouse, or slightly larger but still small percentile of crossplat gamers who are happy to see keybmouse on a console FPS after having "suffered" the controller for so long - will not help the game sales, because the major purchasing power comes from the PS2 gamers who are ugprading to the PS3 - and they sure as **** aren't going to like the "inferior" keybmouse control scheme that they're not used to.

Think about this a bit deeper, than just trying to prove me wrong or something.

[Chevron]

Now that I think about it I remember a while back I tried to show someone how to use a KB+M who've never used them before. It was horrible, they just didn't get it?

Maybe console gamers are dumber than pc gamers. :)

Last comment meant in semi jest.

[Miktar]

Now that I think about it I remember a while back I tried to show someone how to use a KB+M who've never used them before. It was horrible, they just didn't get it?

Maybe console gamers are dumber than pc gamers. :)

Last comment meant in semi jest.

I'm guessing you read that giant article by Sage, then? Your thoughts?

And if the last comment was meant in semi-jest, then I'm really starting to think I may just semi-not like you.

[ioiiooio]

Oh right, so the fact that they have decided to make the port does not indicate in any way that there is a significant demand for it? I'm guessing they just decided they felt like ****ing off console owners?

[Miktar]

We’ll also allow people to choose whether or not they want to allow mixed controller vs. keyboard/mouse games or not. - Mark Rein

Well, I admit - that's one way of setting it up. But, don't you think this'll simply mean that the larger part of the fanbase on console ends up playing on non-keybmouse servers, while the PC gamers end up playing mostly against other PC gamers?

I don't see a FPS fan who prefers keybmouse over controller, buying UT3 for the PS3 - they'd rather get it for their PC?

[kHayne]

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I am only posting it as i see it. Re pro-players disagreeign with twitch-gaming, I'm pretty sure, nonetheless, each one of them would choose a mouse/keyboard control scheme. Tactics in UT/Quake etc are vital, but only once you're on a level playing field (same or similiar reaction/accuracy/etc).
TBH it all smells of idiotic marketing suit influence to me, trying to placate the legions of console players who want to remain squarely in their comfortzone while at the same time retaining the bulk of the traditional UT playerbase happy.
Nerfing keyboard/mouse on the PS3 will be retarded. As will buffing the controller to compensate. It cannot work. I forsee them choosing one or the other and people will just have to adapt. That's life.

[Miktar]

Oh right, so the fact that they have decided to make the port does not indicate in any way that there is a significant demand for it? I'm guessing they just decided they felt like ****ing off console owners?

You didn't think this through, did you?

The port exists simply because the UE3 engine has native support for all the next-gen consoles, except the Wii. UT3 will be coming the 360 as well as the PS3, not because of demand (the demand, is for Unreal Championship 3, tard), but because they want to try and make more money in a new market.

Gods, am I the only one who actually thinks about this ****?

[ioiiooio]

And besides Miktar, it is my honest opinion, if you feel it is idiotic then that is merely your opinion too, I believe we are both entitled to our own opinions and I dont feel that anything I said was rude, hurtfull or indecent in any way and certainly doesn't warrant an expulsion.

peace-1ove-ase

[Miktar]

I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I am only posting it as i see it. Re pro-players disagreeign with twitch-gaming, I'm pretty sure, nonetheless, each one of them would choose a mouse/keyboard control scheme. Tactics in UT/Quake etc are vital, but only once you're on a level playing field (same or similiar reaction/accuracy/etc).
TBH it all smells of idiotic marketing suit influence to me, trying to placate the legions of console players who want to remain squarely in their comfortzone while at the same time retaining the bulk of the traditional UT playerbase happy.
Nerfing keyboard/mouse on the PS3 will be retarded. As will buffing the controller to compensate. It cannot work. I forsee them choosing one or the other and people will just have to adapt. That's life.

Fair enough. Yes, of course the UT pro players would prefer a keyboard and mouse - it's all they've ever had, and it's what they've practiced on for years and years and years...

I agree with you saying it smells like idiot marketing. Nothing has ever come out of Mark Rein's mouth that wasn't in some way highly detrimental to the gaming industry as a whole. The man is incredibly naive and short-sighted, just look at his comments on episodic gaming.

However, I think the exclusion servers I mentioned in a previous post effectively ends this discussion.

[Miktar]

And besides Miktar, it is my honest opinion, if you feel it is idiotic then that is merely your opinion too, I believe we are both entitled to our own opinions and I dont feel that anything I said was rude, hurtfull or indecent in any way and certainly doesn't warrant an expulsion.

peace-1ove-ase

No, what you said was dumb, stupid and you literally just walked in, ignored the ENTIRE THREAD and then spewed your naivety all over it without any consideration for the actual thought going into the discussion. I don't approve of that, and I don't appreciate it. I will always work against it, because I hate it when people don't bother to think about anything they write.

[ioiiooio]

You didn't think this through, did you?

.....but because they want to try and make more money in a new market.



EXACTLY they will make more money from it because there is a significant demand... duh...

[ioiiooio]

No, what you said was dumb, stupid and you literally just walked in, ignored the ENTIRE THREAD and then spewed your naivety all over it without any consideration for the actual thought going into the discussion. I don't approve of that, and I don't appreciate it. I will always work against it, because I hate it when people don't bother to think about anything they write.

I will keep that in mind... my bad.

[Miktar]

EXACTLY they will make more money from it because there is a significant demand... duh...

*rolls eyes*

They will make money, yes. I never said they wouldn't. But the demand you allude to, I don't believe exists. The Unreal Tournament brand is NOT STRONG ON CONSOLES, and it never has been - the strength has always lay with the Unreal Championship brand and series, because of the DIFFERENCE in gameplay.

Unreal Championship was designed from the ground-up, to work well with the controller.

Unreal Tournament was designed from the ground-up, to work well with the keyboard.

The console market DOES NOT WANT UNREAL TOURNAMENT - only the PC gamers think the console gamers do.

[Chevron]

I'm guessing you read that giant article by Sage, then? Your thoughts?


Yes i did and was slightly surprised.

The tiny percentile of PC gamers who get a PS3 to play with keybmouse, or slightly larger but still small percentile of crossplat gamers who are happy to see keybmouse on a console FPS after having "suffered" the controller for so long - will not help the game sales, because the major purchasing power comes from the PS2 gamers who are ugprading to the PS3 - and they sure as **** aren't going to like the "inferior" keybmouse control scheme that they're not used to.


I wasn't saying M+KB is better. Just that console players wouldn't take the time to learn to use the KB+M.


The jesting part was because the people I tried to teach how to use M+KB were stupid and just didn't get it. Well not all consoles players are dumb which is why my smiley face was there to show that I was joking.


The jesting part was because the people I tried to teach how to use M+KB were stupid and just didn't get it.

I feel like that every time I try to teach a keybmouse player how to use a controller...

[Miktar]

Yes i did and was slightly surprised.


I wasn't saying M+KB is better. Just that console players wouldn't take the time to learn to use the KB+M.


The jesting part was because the people I tried to teach how to use M+KB were stupid and just didn't get it. Well not all consoles players are dumb which is why my smiley face was there to show that I was joking.

True - the same way a PC player won't take the time to learn the controller.

The problem with your statement was the "semi" part, but now that you've explained it, I see where you're coming from.

Ironically, these days, I find myself appreciative of console players more than PC players - they seem to less full of **** and ego.

"the people I tried to teach how to use M+KB were stupid and just didn't get it."

I feel like that every time I try to teach a keybmouse player how to use a controller. I tell them , 'C'mon, 6 year olds do it and frag in Halo! Why can't you!'. They don't like that.

[kHayne]

Gross generalisation ftw.

[Azimuth]

Ironically, these days, I find myself appreciative of console players more than PC players - they seem to less full of **** and ego.


I'm so with you on that. It's one of the reasons I've never bothered with online PC gaming or public LANs. I just can't be arsed to tolerate all the strutting hubris. It's like PC gamers have forgotten that gaming = fun.

[.dB]

but I have yet to see someone pull off some of the stunts with a controller that I've seen on Quake 3 demos.

Youtube "ItWasLuck".

[Miktar]

Gross generalisation ftw.

I don't even know where to begin...

[Miktar]

Youtube "ItWasLuck".

U R

http://www.mytvisonfire.com/couchpotato/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/heroes_hiro.jpg

[Chevron]

I finished medal of honour on the cube and even though it was fun. I'd still take a M+KB anyday. That's obviously my preference.

Moving slightly off topic I love fighting games. Favourite is still tekken tag.

I really wish that more pc people bought controllers. I'd love to see Tekken on the pc. My fingers got blisters playing Tekken 3 on the PS1.

[Miktar]

itwasluck montage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9JMRlwEL_A)

That was an entertaining watch.

As for fighting games:

Soul Calibur > Tekken, noob! ;) ;) ;)

Okay, so can we consider this topic done?

[echo]

Its weird how one's perception changes when you actually have a console, but it just feels to me like Console players are PC gamers that have grown up. I know I'm gonna get a lot of kak for saying it, but thats just the way I see it. Gaming gets better when you move to consoles.

And now for something on-topic: Epic hasn't done much wrong in my eyes over the years, but this move looks like they want to change console gaming. IMHO, bad move.

[cYn]

The controller vs mouse/keyboard is an often debated/flamed topic. Probably a little too often. From what I gather, people pro controllers are saying that not relying on pin point mouse accuracy allows people to focus on other elements of game play, get around the level strategically etc. Fair enough. But its not like winning a FPS 1 vs 1 game is purely about aiming when it comes to the mouse combo. It really comes down to dominating the armour and health. Obviously it helps if you can kill the other guy. If you have a short range weapon and your opponent is sniping you with a hitscan weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitscan)... you just keep in close. You have different weapons for different attack ranges. Resulting in what should be dynamic showdowns as you change weapon types for the situation at hand.

I'm not a FPS console guru, so I can only comment on what has been said here and on other forums. But it looks like a console FPS would remove or limit the ranged aspect. So you have one less option. Your standard PC FPS would have long ranged, mid ranged and short ranged weapons. I'm guessing consoles would mostly stick two just two options with regards to weapon ranges. Which is fine, because the games are designed around that. Then again consoles can have aim assisting. Which is fine too.

The problem for me is when people try to combine the two platforms into one game. As a PC or a console game they seem to be great, but when you bring them together... The two interfaces are governed by different rules brought about by their various limitations and strengths. Now they are put into the same arena? I'm sure it can be balanced by very clever and extensive tweaking. You know making sure that an average player with some aiming assistance on his console has about the same accuracy as your average keyboard/mouse guy. But this sounds precarious. Will be a lot of fun if they can get the balance right. I'm assuming of course that there will be some sort of aiming assistance for controllers. The only other way to balance it out is to use close range weapons with a wide spread, or beam weapons. Which then cripples the whole hitscan dynamic. Perhaps servers will have be tagged as keyboard and mouse servers.

No point in arguing about it. The game will be released and we'll all know for sure. I'll grab it as soon as it comes out. Miktar I'll challenge you to a PC vs Console 1vs1 :P
I'm not an FPS pro or anything and you say you have a lot of controller FPS experience. It'd be a good benchmark not on personal abilities(maybe a little) but as to whether it is possible to have balanced cross platform FPS.

[Miktar]

No, cYn, you won't. Also, please read the article by Sage several pages back, because it says everything you just did.


Rumour Crushing: Unreal III Not Cross Platform

At 4:13 on the afternoon of August 3rd, Epic's Mark Rein, posting to his own forum, stated the following:

"I checked with Steve Polge and he said that YES we are supporting keyboard and mouse in Unreal Tournament 3 on PS3. He is confident we are doing it in a way that will be balanced without feeling "gimped" for either side. We'll also allow people to choose whether or not they want to allow mixed controller vs. keyboard/mouse games or not."

Some 'sources' have now managed to morph this into the 'fact' that Unreal Tournament III will be cross-platform PS3 and PC.

Strange, because at 4.29pm on the same day, Rein actually pointed out that:

"Cross platform play isn't decided yet. Please keep this thread about keyboard and mouse for PS3. There are other threads on cross platform."

Oddly enough, I was wondering why people were saying UT3 would have PC/PS3 cross-plat, since it seems unlikely. I doubt it's going to happen at all, now...

So the final tally:

UT3 will allow keybmouse on PS3.

Players can set servers to be controller only, keybmouse only, or mixed.

Console FPS veterans will set their servers to controller.
PC FPS new to console FPS will set to keybmouse only or mixed.
Ex-pat PC FPS veterans will set to keybmouse only or mixed.

So basically - I have nothing to worry about, since I can avoid playing with keybmouse players entirely. Then again - I won't be buying UT3 for the console. I consider UT a PC franchise, and I'll keep it there.

[kHayne]

I can avoid playing with keybmouse players entirely.

I'm willing to bet in a couple months after release, you and maybe, like, 2 other guys will be the only ones sitting in the Analog Controller Only lobby.

[Miktar]

I'm willing to bet in a couple months after release, you and maybe, like, 2 other guys will be the only ones sitting in the Analog Controller Only lobby.

Probably because the gameplay will have been designed in such a way, that it's no fun to play on a controller.

Did you read my post, btw?

I said that I'm not playing UT3 on console, it's a PC franchise and I'd prefer to play it on PC. I'll hold out for Unreal Championship 3, when it comes to consoles.

[Squirly]

You know, having watched pro-level UT at the various carousel events, I don't see how accuracy over large distances (ie, what a mouse was designed to do) is going to help you all that much. Most of the domination gameplay (ie, control the armor spawns, time the shield belt, etc) centered around battling each other from one or two chokepoints at very long range, using the movement keys to strafe in and out of cover and taking potshots with a largely immobile mouse...


Largely immobile? Man, that's ignorant yo! "Long range potshots" makes even less sense but hey - I haven't played UT that much so I'll hold on "nay!".

But that's sort of my point. Yes, your analog stick will work perfectly fine, especially if you design the game around those concepts. But what if I want to play a game where long range, intense sniper sessions are the order of the day? Pin point accuracy at a twitch. Call of Duty anyone? Which is not to say that it doesn't work on the console, but it's not the same and in these types of games I'm fairly sure mousers will have the advantage.



Then again, maybe I just don't get mouse-FPS play anyway. I've always played on a ridiculously high sensitivity and totally hate all this lame all-the-way-across-the-pad to even turn slightly crap.
-D

So do I and thousands of other "skilled" FPS players. :)

[cYn]

"Cross platform play isn't decided yet. Please keep this thread about keyboard and mouse for PS3. There are other threads on cross platform."

I'd say things like this (http://utforums.epicgames.com/showthread.php?t=574996) would explain why myself and others believed there will be cross platform gaming. It is rather vague though, perhaps a bit of spin and hype.

I read the short version of Sage's explanation, when I got to the "long version" my mind disengaged as minds tend to when those words are uttered and caffeine is running low. I'm surprised that you're not going to play it on the PS3 after fighting the good fight for controllers.

/edit oops wrong link
This (http://www.psu.com/PS3-UTIII-To-Have-Cross-Platform-Play-News--a894-p0.php)is the one which says cross platform, that is the source for this one which got twisted


PS3 UT3 to have cross platform play
Posted on August 7th, 2007 at 03:24 EDT

According to Mark Rein from Epic Games, the PC and PS3 versions of Unreal Tournament 3 have the possibility of being enabled for cross platform play.

To what extent this will be included, still remains a mystery.

Now UT3 makes for a complete experience, including mouse and keyboard support thanks to the beautifully crafted FragFx. PSU can't wait to see the mayhem of PS3 players and PC players duking it out this coming November, however it is implemented.

Source: Epic Forums

[Chevron]

a largely immobile mouse...
If your mouse is immobile increase the sensitivity. If the mouse is immobile isn't the analogue stick even less mobile?

[Miktar]

I'm surprised that you're not going to play it on the PS3 after fighting the good fight for controllers.

Why? I make it abundantly clear, that I consider UT a PC brand that has it's home and spirit on the PC and keybmouse.

I was fighting the good fight against ignorance, not *for* controllers. I play on *both* schemes equally well because I frankly don't give a **** about input - I've tried to play Quake 3 using a DDR pad just for lols.

Right at the start of this entire thread, I made the point that people should be allowed to play how they want - but it was quickly met with the usual "Lawl, Keybmouse > Controller!" which is just factually incorrect, and I fought against that. The whole "us vs them" thing is a strong theme in gaming these days, and I don't approve.

Console vs PC
AMD vs Intel
ATI vs Nvidia
Episodic vs Blockbuster
Steam vs GameTap
IRC vs Mxit
Forums vs Dogs
Cats vs Dogs
Dogs vs Parakeets
Parakeets vs The Nazis

It just never ends, and quite frankly, when it comes to controller vs keybmouse nothing is more asinine than trying to prove one better than the other. It's a matter of preference, situation, design of the game and the various supporting constructs to either.

So I posted, and posted, and posted... :P

I think I may have gotten through to a few, though, which makes it all worth it.

[Miktar]

[quote=dislekcia]a largely immobile mouse...[quote]
If your mouse is immobile increase the sensitivity. If the mouse is immobile isn't the analogue stick even less mobile?

It's more about absolute vs relative motion...

[cYn]

I think I may have gotten through to a few, though, which makes it all worth it.

Thats what I was hoping my post would do. But people tend to have knee jerk reactions to topics like these which are some how emotionally charged. Perhaps emotions fueled by the money they've spend on their respective platforms.

[Miktar]

I think it's just ignorance, and people react emotional and violently when they internally realize they are ignorant. After all, people don't like to know they're wrong - myself included.

[Etienne]

But you're never wrong, Miktar!

Apparently...

[CaptainCrunch]

After all, people don't like to know they're wrongO it's true...it is true.

[Miktar]

After all, people don't like to know they're wrong - myself included.

If you're going to quote, quote the full thing.

[Miktar]

But you're never wrong, Miktar!

Apparently...

I like how you butter up to me on IRC when you want the inside scoop on anything Nintendo, but then take a slightly different tone here on the forums in public. ;)

No, I'm wrong quite often, but I always make a point of fessing up when I am. The problem is, very few people ever want to admit it when I'm *right*, because that's just ****ing terrible.

[Etienne]

What can I say? I disagree with you on a lot of points. I'm not going to shut up about it, though.

[Miktar]

Hey, I don't care if someone disagrees with me - but I'll be damned if I'll let someone say something stupid without them backing it up with some rational, logic, facts or at least a bit of creativity. :P

Ironically, all the points you disagree with me on, I believe in about 2 months, you'll agree with me on. (if you end up sticking around on the forums for a few months, that is) ;)

[Etienne]

Doubt it. Especially if your explanation on why Shadowrun is NOT dumbed down for PC players is anything to go on.

Oh well, at least it provides for some entertaining times here at work. :P

[Miktar]

Doubt it. Especially if your explanation on why Shadowrun is NOT dumbed down for PC players is anything to go on.

Oh well, at least it provides for some entertaining times here at work. :P

To be fair, I've never played Shadowrun on PC - I own the 360 version. After reading the article by Sage, I will conceed I was incorrect in my assumptions, and for that I apologize.

However, if you read the article by Sage, you'll realize that the other 99% of my argument was 100% valid. Will you conceed that, or continue to nitpick at me for whatever reason?

I'm trying my best here on the forums to engage people, as well as call people on their bull****. I like to consider myself fair and friendly, with the exception of when I'm provoked.

If you're going to stick around only to take the occasional jab at me when you see the opening, then I feel I may have to just refrain from engaging you entirely.

Ball in your court.

[Etienne]

I apologise if I came across as "taking jabs" at you. I guess you are the only person that actually said something worth replying to. So, it wasn't directed to you, just because you are you, but because you said something I thought was worth "discussing". Yes, I trolled some times and for that I apologise, but don't think it was because of you.

[Miktar]

Eh, don't worry. I hate to get all soppy on this - I just live with the unrealistic expectation that perhaps I can get along with everyone, even if I don't agree with them. It's initially quite difficult, since people tend to instantly dislike each other sometimes, especially on forums.

When you put it that way, in terms of discussing, I can see how I misinterpreted your comments - my bad.

Now let's get back to arguing before someone calls this thread 'Days of our Lives'. :P

[CaptainCrunch]

If you're going to quote, quote the full thing.My bad, i dropped the last part coz i thought that it might look like jab in the context of my reply.

[Miktar]

My bad, i dropped the last part coz i thought that it might look like jab in the context of my reply.

I did - and I don't like it when people quote out of context. I find it a very cruel thing to do, because it is essentially taking someone's words and twisting it around. :P

[CaptainCrunch]

Yeah, i was actually trying unsuccessfully to achieve the opposite.

[cYn]

Whoa... this is all getting far too grown up and civilised. Perhaps even a little introspective. We're going to end up on Oprah.
As such I would like to say that the keyboard/mouse option is an additional feature and something people can take or leave. It would certainly give me incentive to play the PS3 version of UT3, coming from a UT background and not a Halo one.
But I like extras, I like buying something and then realising that hey, I can plug more stuff into it and play with all of these other options. This has all been covered, but I was worried about the imminent group hug.

[Chevron]

Sometimes shortening is necessary though. Especially when all you want to quote is one line of 4 paragraph post.

[Miktar]

Whoa... this is all getting far too grown up and civilised. Perhaps even a little introspective. We're going to end up on Oprah.
As such I would like to say that the keyboard/mouse option is an additional feature and something people can take or leave. It would certainly give me incentive to play the PS3 version of UT3, coming from a UT background and not a Halo one.
But I like extras, I like buying something and then realising that hey, I can plug more stuff into it and play with all of these other options. This has all been covered, but I was worried about the imminent group hug.

But it's unlikely, don't you think, that if you are going to play UT3 that you'd play it on PS3 with a keyboard and mouse - when you can get it for the PC and play it natively there with a keybmouse?

[Chevron]

Also the pc version would be half the price. R300 VS R600

[cYn]

Well this is all very hypothetical. As I don't own a PS3. I won't own one until I have a very big LCD HDTV. Which wont be happening anytime soon. Unless I get a reasonably large LCD monitor with HDMI inputs. Which is more likely.

So with all of that in mind, if by some bizarre twist I had no PC and...

Oh **** never mind you're right.

[Miktar]

Also the pc version would be half the price. R300 VS R600

Biggest factor for me too. When a game is multiplat PC and 360, I tend to lean towards the cheaper, except if I specifically think the game was designed for the 360.

[dislekcia]

Actually, watching those Halo montages and comparing them to the pro-level PC FPS gameplay I've seen made me realise something that I've never really articulated before, but always held as crucial to FPS core gameplay (remember, this is from the POV of a game designer here).

Movement is what it's all about. Superior positioning is everything in an FPS, sure great aim does help in pinch situations (and oddly enough, it really does look like ItWasLuck's reticle is aim-assisted sometimes, when I know it isn't) but it's the movement in those situations that's much more important to the outcome of the firefight.

Now, looking in terms of movement in FPS games, how do the pros use it? We all know about trick-jumping and bunnyhopping in the Quake games, it's a required skill on the pro-level now because of the importance of mobility advantage. But the UT series has always had much more overt movement complexities: Double jumping, dodges, wall-jumps, etc. In Quake the movement skills were errors, happy accidents of rounding calculations and bounding-box exploitation (oh, right, I forget that few people know WHY circle-jumping actually works and why it works better in some areas: AABB baby, look it up). Yet how often do pro UT players use their hard-coded movement alternatives? They double jump constantly, but dodging throws off aim, so it's mainly used sparingly as a jump distance extender, just like the various jump tricks in Quake... Tactically, the goal of movement is the same: Secure an advantage over your opponent by either holding a position, dominating a resource or flanking unexpectedly.

Right. So how does movement map to control schemes? On PC, rather badly actually. You have to pre-empt other systems for use in movement... Flick- and circle-jumping being the prime candidates here: You're using your aiming input (the mouse) to create movement variables. Control-wise we've got a multi-purpose mapping, this time it's mouse->movement modifiers. Conversely in UT you've also got a multi-purpose mapping, but this time keyboard->movement modifiers. You could argue that the keyboard mapping, requiring extra keytaps is more complicated and therefore less useable, as the pro-level usage seems to point out: In Quake a circle jump is about hitting two or three keys, holding them down and moving the mouse; In UT a walljump is a much more complex process involving changing directional keys and multi-taps while still moving the mouse... So in terms of ease of movement making a difference to gameplay, simplicity/transparency of mapping is important.

This seems to make sense when you take a look at movement on console FPS. Remember that console analogue sticks mean that players have more precise control over movement than they do on a PC: The mapping is more detailed yet also simpler - speed and direction are finer-grained but easier to use, so you instantly have a complexity boost. This is shown by pro-level console FPS players using both player and reticle movement to aim in a way that is far more integrated than PC aim - on PC the mouse totally dominates the aim equation, especially in games like CS that rarely feature movement as instantaneous advantage in firefights.

So what was the point of all that? Well, I see movement opportunities that are as-yet unexploited in console FPS design... I'm firmly in the camp that believes input mechanisms evolve with games, FPS grew up on PC and moved over to console so now it has a lot of learning to do as a genre to find mechanics and tropes that are enjoyable on the different (but not "better" or "worse") control system. Personally I think movement options will be a big part of that. I'm waiting for the console FPS game that completely emphasises movement over anything else, think Assassins Creed with multiplayer deathmatch and you'll sort of be on the right track. On a console adding in movement complexity is already partially done for you with the finer-grained motion, but you've also got a lot more room in terms of easily accessible buttons (and remember, it's not 3 fingers for movement like on PC, it's 1 on an analogue stick) that can compliment additional mobility modifiers... What if X allowed you to bunny-hop and holding Y helped you jump farther? You'd lose a bit of aiming fidelity via not being able to turn while initiating the move, but good players would take those decisions and create strategy.

... I guess my main point is that I want to FPS to grow up on console too. In a way, we're sort of getting there with the evolution of TPS (Third Person Shooter) games, but I want more.

I want ninjas bounding around levels and awesome midair combat. I want CTF on the underside of a flying city. I want Descent to comeback now that we have the control mapping to pull it off. I want Allegiance on Live. I want a lot of people to open their eyes and realise that their view of FPS is currently PC flavoured, which is why you think it "belongs" there. I want more ideas, because right now people are dumbly trying to make a controller do the same things as a mouse.

And the irony is that, from a software POV, they are exactly the same thing... They give you exactly the same data. It's just how people use them that makes the difference.

-D

[ReinHer]

I wonder if strafe jumping would work on a console controller.

[Azimuth]

Errr, why wouldn't it? Strafe jumping is just strafing + jumping. So, it's really just down to a button combo.

[dislekcia]

What about firing options? Sure, guns have an on-off system: You pull the trigger or you don't. But that doesn't mean our games have to... Alternate fire is awesome. Why is nobody borrowing more from console-successful fighting games and adding fire-combos for different effects with the same weapon?

I like that idea.

-D

[Miktar]

That depends on if the game makes allowances for it. -.-

Please read what dislekcia wrote.

[ReinHer]

The UT series has always had a advanced fire/secondary-fire system.

And Azimuth, I'm talking about doing 90units jumping distances of 18m. Switching directions that fast while maintaining control with an analog stick seems very hard to me but I guess it can be done.

[Miktar]

The UT series has always had a advanced fire/secondary-fire system.

That's not what dislekcia was talking about when he was talking about combination attacks. We /have/ played UT, you know.

[dislekcia]

That depends on if the game makes allowances for it. -.-

Please read what dislekcia wrote.

Heh, don't worry, I know nobody will read it ;) Too much text and not enough pictures.


The UT series has always had a advanced fire/secondary-fire system.

And Azimuth, I'm talking about doing 90units jumping distances of 18m. Switching directions that fast while maintaining control with an analog stick seems very hard to me but I guess it can be done.

Think about it for a second: Why does your current orientation have to be the thing that defines the jump? Why not allow people to start the jump using a button + movement direction on the controller, instead of having to flick your view (which is what the mouse is built for but analogue-stick input rarely gets used for).

So yes, you could easily strafe-jump/circle-jump on a console. In fact my point is that you could do far MORE and be a lot more flexible on a console... All you have to do is decouple the aiming system->movement options link.

-D

[dislekcia]

That's not what dislekcia was talking about when he was talking about combination attacks. We /have/ played UT, you know.

Maybe he hasn't played fighting games? If that's the case he WOULDN'T understand the difference...

-D

[Miktar]

Maybe he hasn't played fighting games? If that's the case he WOULDN'T understand the difference...

-D

Point. I submit.

[ReinHer]

Ok, the circle strafe jump is not 'just flicking the mouse'. Its actually a fluid movement at a medium speed, infact in Q3 the only way to truly see how graceful your circle jump is is to watch it from first person in slowmotion to spot any mouse lags or stops. Its not really an exact science, its technique, you get it from understanding and practise.

[kHayne]

@ disklecmia: Srsly though, tl;dr dude. Ya gotta work with your audience.

What I want is a multiplayer full-3d fighting game. Something sorta like Jedi Knight. Or Rune. But slightly less shooter-ey and somewhat more fighter-ey. I was never really that big on shooters, especially the current onus on sniping and extreme ranged combat (I=flak monkey) but the rare, good melee fps I would devour. I want dragonball z powerups and streetfighter style shoryukens in first person or possibly third person, with working block and counters and combos and sheeit.
Of course, I think building a proper, working control scheme for that kind of thing would probably be simply flat out impossible, or at least extremely difficult to get right. It hasn't been managed yet, anyway. Rune came close but was a little too simplistic.
Hmm, this random train of thought has resulted in an "Omfg wtb jedi knight 4" moment.

[Miktar]

I officially give up on this thread.

[kHayne]

Emo admin is emo.

[Miktar]

Emo admin is emo.

Actually, your post made me reconsider, but really, I'm just tired of this discussion.

[dislekcia]

Ok, the circle strafe jump is not 'just flicking the mouse'. Its actually a fluid movement at a medium speed, infact in Q3 the only way to truly see how graceful your circle jump is is to watch it from first person in slowmotion to spot any mouse lags or stops. Its not really an exact science, its technique, you get it from understanding and practise.

...

Dude, you're not getting what I'm saying. However you move your mouse, you're still tying the MOUSE to MOVEMENT OPTIONS. Uncouple the two and suddenly you have FAR MORE possibilities on a console FPS.

And I know my way around trick jumping. I'm the guy that found the damn hole in the sky in Q2DM1, back in the day.

-D

[Miktar]

...

Dude, you're not getting what I'm saying. However you move your mouse, you're still tying the MOUSE to MOVEMENT OPTIONS. Uncouple the two and suddenly you have FAR MORE possibilities on a console FPS.

And I know my way around trick jumping. I'm the guy that found the damn hole in the sky in Q2DM1, back in the day.

-D

Don't you feel old now? I swear, it's like everyone thinks that they're the first to understand the subtle nuance of circle-strafing from the top of the crate to the mega-health in Q2DM1...

God. Circlestrafing is so 1993...

[dislekcia]

Nah, it's cool. I grew up and do it IRL now... :)

Wait till someone explains how micro works in a thread I start to discuss console RTS design... Then I'll get angry.

-D

[kHayne]

There was a game a long while back, a sword hack-n-slash, that had you using your mouse to swing your sword arm and keyboard for movement. I forget the name.
It was revolutionary.
It also sold like 3 copies.
Not that I'm going anywhere with this. I suppose there's room for revolution still. It's simply a little difficult to combine with useability and fun.

[Miktar]

There was a game a long while back, a sword hack-n-slash, that had you using your mouse to swing your sword arm and keyboard for movement. I forget the name.
It was revolutionary.
It also sold like 3 copies.
Not that I'm going anywhere with this. I suppose there's room for revolution still. It's simply a little difficult to combine with useability and fun.

Die by the Sword, and it even had an expansion. We jammed it multiplayer at CyberCats for many an afternoon. Kobold vs Orge!

[dislekcia]

DbtS was awesome. It had a cult following in many places and the designer (and the small team who worked on the game) went on to become quite famous, a lot more famous than they were before the game came out ;)

There was an interview with the guy on Gamasutra a month or so back.

Being caught in a rope trap and actually having to slice through it on your own to escape? Kick-Ass.

-D

[dangarratt]

I fink that the joypad SUCKS!!!!!!! Keyboard and mouse foreva!



What a stupid argument! I'm quite surprised Miktar persevered for so long!
As he correctly pointed out, it's much of a muchness -they are too different input mechanisms. I've only ever played about 10 mins on a console FPS and found it immensely frustrating because I couldn't use the inputs correctly. I'll probably not buy a console FPS for that reason - it'll just take me too long to relearn, and it took ages to get anywhere half-decent on the keybmouse!!
I'd also like to add a large "I AGREE" to the anti-PC gamers on FPS games rant. CS is ruined for people like me who aren't LEET. It is impossible to play casually every now and again because you spend most of your time dead... :(

[ReinHer]

If you don't have 'leet skills', which is a bunch of bull anyway. Don't play CS, especially not 1.6. Play FEAR combat or Crysis when its released. These fast paced FPS games even the playing field dramatically by introducing special weapons and objectives so that even a noob can get off a couple of shots.