Windows Is Free

[Miktar]

http://tlug.jp/articles/Windows_Is_Free


The impact of pirated software on free software

Long read, but worth it - and it makes many points in addition to what I did in the piracy thread.

[dangarratt]

"Clearly, all indications are that many people will often trade in a little morality for something that's valuable to own and free to get. To make the exchange of principles for goods, one has to cut a deal with their conscience by forming the right justification."

"They are indifferent to the crime because the ease and pervasiveness of sharing software has obscured the value of the items they're giving away. They assure themselves they aren't really doing anything wrong because, after all, if the woman dancer wasn't offered a free copy, then she simply would never use it. She's not depriving the source company of any profit because it's not profit they would ever see from her anyway. That kind of logic, and there is some logic in it, helps obscure the cost of software in the minds of the casual cracked software user.

Consider how different the whole interaction would be if the woman receiving the pirated software was offered a 400 dollar stolen iPod."

As I said - dressing theft up in different clothes doesn't make it any less theft.
And, yes, Miktar, I do understand why Microsoft may actually benefit from it, but it still doesn't make it right. Also, note that the ubiquitousness of P2P etc is a recent phenomenon, and wasn't mainstream when XP came out (although the "computer guy" has always existed!).
The other problem with his article is that Linux has only recently become mainstream user-friendly (particularly Linux). It is only now that I can recommend Linux to friends knowing that I won't get hundreds of phone calls! The Linux effect in the home user market has yet to be felt.

[Chevron]

They assure themselves they aren't really doing anything wrong because, after all, if the woman dancer wasn't offered a free copy, then she simply would never use it. She's not depriving the source company of any profit because it's not profit they would ever see from her anyway.

That is so true.

There is almost no-one that would pay R4000 for vista ultimate. So if the people that couldn't afford it copied it. There'd be no way microsoft could say they lost money. Those people wouldn't have bought it anyway.

[Miktar]

@dangarratt: You are being extremely black & white not to mention stoic.

"Doesn't make it right"

Define "right" first, plz.

[dangarratt]

@ Miktar - and so are you - very black and white about it all being grey. And grey means I can redefine the law! W000T! And I can decide on other people's behalf whether what I am doing is acceptable or not. What a great philosophy!

[Miktar]

I'm not discussing this topic with you anymore, since you obviously refuse to listen to reason. You already mentioned you work for a bean-counting software development firm - this concludes your view is 100% biased.

Which is a shame, because it's plain as day to anyone who bothers thinking about it that "piracy" is a maligned umbrella term, and that there is more to this than simple right/wrong.

But hey - you don't tell me how to do my job, I won't tell you how to do yours.

[Gldm]

@ Miktar - and so are you - very black and white about it all being grey. And grey means I can redefine the law! W000T! And I can decide on other people's behalf whether what I am doing is acceptable or not. What a great philosophy!

You're the one who's been redefining the law, or did you miss my reply to you about definitions in the Piracy thread?

If you want to start discussing philosophies, try this: When the overwhelming majority of people disobey a law, the problem is not with the people, but with the law. Laws serve the people, not vice-versa. To argue otherwise is to invite fascism.

[Sir)Kickasselot]

WHAT?!! Do my eyes decieve me?Admins for piracy!???Where are brazed and dislekcia?I am pretty sure they do not share your sentiments,yet they aren't reacting violently by bitching and screaming like they normally do to anyone saying anything remotely positive about piracy.Go figure.

I just read the entire piracy thread,an I can't believe how many ****ing whimps you get,just because it was Mik who said piracy is o.k you guys just accepted it.Had it been just about anyone else,there would have been a major outcry,but even the "intellectuals" decided that they would rather remain silent or agree with mik than say voice their opinion.I think there are 2 reasons for that.
1.You are on good terms with mik and fear if you say something he doesn't like he wont play with you anymore.
2.You are so scared that you might be humiliated or beaten in an argument that you would rather not even try.
Dangarrat I commend you for atleast not being to scared to say what you really think.

[Darkmag]

1.You are on good terms with mik and fear if you say something he doesn't like he wont play with you anymore.
2.You are so scared that you might be humiliated or beaten in an argument that you would rather not even try.


You forgot the one that says

3) What he says makes perfect and logical sense.

4) What He said I already agree with.

People should open there minds to new ideas and new ways of thinking. Stubborness is a bad characteristic.

[Plan 9]

This article is purely right...and, the author explains it all very much in detail. Only things that are keeping people back are like he says, serious gamers who would rather pay the $200 (those who either buy it pre-installed on a computer OR for those that don't use cracked versions anyway) and businesses who are too afraid of these legal issues. Then you get people like dangarrat (who are the minority) who are just plainly against pirated software (or any other manner of "stealing" for that matter).

My argument on this is a little drastic, some would say it doesn't really fit into this topic (perhaps it does). Software is code, code is mathematical algorithms...which is knowledge. Knowledge should be FREE. Sure, it's fine if companies charge for service (because those poor people at the end of the line need to buy their milk and bread too). I guess I'm just an open-source guy and someone who likes sharing knowledge, everyone are entitled to it imho.

My 2 cents again

EDIT: After re-reading, I do realize that people will argue that those poor fellas who worked ages on Windows' development need money too. I realize this. However they work on that model, if they were to be giving away all versions of Windows for free, I can assure you they'd be working on a volunteer system like the open-source community...which is exactly what it is. Also, I do know that Microsoft do pay for certain royalties (proprietary codecs etc.)

[Sir)Kickasselot]

I am referring to everyone who I have personally seen bitching about piracy,and now,had a sudden change of hart.

[Squirly]

Sir)Kickasselot - read the entire thread, realize that it is not a case of advocating piracy and, finally, use your BRAIN to come to the conclusion that admins are NOT saying piracy is good, but that's it's not as bad as some higher-ups in the industry would like you to believe.

I know it's a lot to ask, but it's totally worth it (reading, I mean).

[Miktar]

Sometimes, Sir)Kickasselot - a person may suddenly discover that in light of new evidence and ideas, paradigm shifts can occur.

My own view of piracy has changed dramatically over the course of the last 10 years, going from 'PIRACY BAD' before working for NAG, to 'PIRACY GOOD' while working for NAG, and now my view on piracy is a very holistic one - I'm taking into account ALL the factors in play, and looking at the bigger picture.

I think Historians try to do the same thing, so as to better understand the motivations and cause/effect structures.

Yes, my opinions and views have changed: it's called admitting when you're wrong, or that you didn't know enough before when you initially formed the opinion.

[Sir)Kickasselot]

Mik,I am in now way attacking you,you gave your opinion and you stick with it,thats fine.the problem I have is with the people I KNOW still hate piracy and are either remaining silent,or agreeing with you just because their scared of having their asses handed to them.

Squirly,read the post that mik made after yours,mik is saying PIRACY IS GOOD FOR THE IDUSTRY.Strange that people who know the least,say the most.Follow your own advice and go read the locked piracy forum,I am afraid you have no idea what you are talking about,and before you read it,and fully understand what it says,shut up.

[Miktar]

Yes: I believe piracy is good for the industry, and all my reasons are listed clearly in the Piracy thread.

I think we can move on from this topic now?

[dangarratt]

@ Miktar
If someone disagrees with you, I think you should be grown-up enough to discuss their point of view without insulting their beliefs, saying they don't listen to reason, accusing them of penny-pinching, and calling them biased.
It would be very easy to mount an attack on you in the same way.

I reiterate: You (and many others) believe that in certain cases it's okay to deprive someone else of income they deserve (because of whatever reason, including that you believe you are helping them in a roundabout way). I believe it is not.

[Miktar]

@ Miktar
If someone disagrees with you, I think you should be grown-up enough to discuss their point of view without insulting their beliefs, saying they don't listen to reason, accusing them of penny-pinching, and calling them biased.
It would be very easy to mount an attack on you in the same way.

I reiterate: You (and many others) believe that in certain cases it's okay to deprive someone else of income they deserve (because of whatever reason, including that you believe you are helping them in a roundabout way). I believe it is not.

Then I'm sorry to hear that. I believe you are incorrect, and that your viewpoint is biased based on personal situation.

If you believe it is not, you can elaborate, but in all honesty I have no interest in discussing this further, especially not on a forum.

However, it proves to me that you've not been listening to what I say, because you accuse me of believing "it's okay to deprive someone else of income". I do not believe that, and the fact that you assume I do means you've not read a single word I've said, or you're not willing to meet me half-way on this.

I sternly speak out against the act of piracy that physically takes profit from someone else's work - I've said so several times in the piracy thread. However, people who casually pirate to "check stuff out" do not in fact take money from the developers or publishers, because those people would never have bought the product in the first place.

Those people represent your advertising, your word-of-month: such people would, in the past, be the people who tape a song off the radio and then listen to it at home, perhaps with friends or to play it to a friend because they think it's cool.

History has taught us, time and again, that the last ****ing thing you do is quash -that- specific instance of piracy, because that is shooting yourself in the foot.

dangarratt, you're being black and white on this. I implore you to set aside your personal biased just for a few minutes to consider where I'm coming from on this.

I'm not stupid, I'm not blind and I'm not ignorant. I spent every day, up to my ears in sales figures, stats, piracy figures, retail outlet figures, publisher and distributor figures - and not just for the gaming industry, but movie and music too.

The one thing that stands out like a sore thumb, the "elephant in the room" as it were - is that piracy does more good than harm, in context of piracy that does not involve someone making money off someone else's products.

Once again, I bring up 3D Studio Max, Photoshop, Maya, Softimage, Lightscape and other highly-expensive programs that get pirated to hell and high water - and yet, the piracy of those products has not impacted the financial success of their companies - in fact, said companies have had nothing but benfits from their software being pirated.

I could explain why, but really, it's elementary and I don't like repeating myself.

I don't deal in idealism, I deal in facts, and history.

[Squirly]

Just to really grind the point:

Pirated game <> lost sale. If I get handed a pirated copy of a game, doesn't mean I would buy the original if I saw it in the shop.

[Miktar]

This is exactly why I keep reiterating the point, that "piracy" is an umbrella term that is being misapplied to too large an idea.

A lot of people have gotten so brainwashed by executives and beancounters that "PIRACY BAAD! NAPSTER BAAD!", that they don't even realize that "piracy" is a straw-man, created to help certain people make more money.

I'll cite examples, once again, of why piracy does not hurt sales: Mika's Grace Kelly, Galactic Civilizations, Starcraft, Diablo, Quake, Quake 2, Doom 3, Popcap games...

Every single one of those had record-breaking piracy.
Every single one of those had record-breaking sales and financial growth.

People need to understand the difference between piracy, and sharing.

[kHayne]

Analogy tiem.

Bootleggers put Metallica on the map. At that time, when they were nobody, Larss and company were happy to see fans distributing cassette copies and getting their names out there.
Fast forward a decade and it's all "FIRE/NAPSTER BAD!"
Same with gaming. Pirates can make a game much more popular and high profile. Studios like Valve and Blizzard actually owe a lot to pirates for turning games like Starcraft and Halflife into more than just passing fads.
It's something of a force of nature though, and can be as destructive as it can be positive.

My approach to using piracy as a tool and actually embracing it, would be to do away with copy protection schemes, but use episodic downloadable expandable content as a drawcard. Buy or warez the game and play it offline but to access extra content, you have to authorize online.

[Gldm]

I think Stardock hit the mark with Galactic Civilizations 2. The game has zero copy protection, so you can just play it. But if you want patches, you need to register on their site with your serial key.

[Squirly]

Totally worth it too, because that game rocks the house...

[Miktar]

Analogy tiem.

Bootleggers put Metallica on the map. At that time, when they were nobody, Larss and company were happy to see fans distributing cassette copies and getting their names out there.
Fast forward a decade and it's all "FIRE/NAPSTER BAD!"
Same with gaming. Pirates can make a game much more popular and high profile. Studios like Valve and Blizzard actually owe a lot to pirates for turning games like Starcraft and Halflife into more than just passing fads.
It's something of a force of nature though, and can be as destructive as it can be positive.

My approach to using piracy as a tool and actually embracing it, would be to do away with copy protection schemes, but use episodic downloadable expandable content as a drawcard. Buy or warez the game and play it offline but to access extra content, you have to authorize online.

QFE

[dangarratt]

<snip you disagree with me = you don't understand my argument>

I sternly speak out against the act of piracy that physically takes profit from someone else's work - I've said so several times in the piracy thread. However, people who casually pirate to "check stuff out" do not in fact take money from the developers or publishers, because those people would never have bought the product in the first place.

<snip comments about personal bias & "proof" of piracy = good>


Thanks for the apology.
Oh wait.....
Anyway, I understand your argument (and have understood it the whole time). Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand your argument! Why don't you set aside *your* personal bias for a little while?
To paraphrase my initial response: The "they would never have bought it anyway" argument is one that we all use to comfort ourselves that we're not *really* doing anything wrong.
To expand: I used to use it - then I grew up and I realised that I was stealing someone else's work. So I stopped pirating. And - wonder of wonders - I suddenly started BUYING the games that I previously would have pirated.
Your argument about "people would never buy it anyway" is fallacious. Why would they pirate it if they didn't want it?

You quote "facts". Don't you think the programs/games you mentioned, as well as the companies that produced them, may be did / are doing well despite the piracy? Maybe the reason the sales figures and piracy figures are so high is because the game/program is really good, and therefore everyone wants it. "Oh look, sales figures are high, and piracy figures are high, therefore sales figures must be high because of piracy" is a *huge* flight of fancy. And, yes, I understand the viral marketing idea.


I don't deal in idealism, I deal in facts, and history.
Miktar, you're so high on your horse I can barely see you. What?s the point of having a forum where everyone just toes the ?party line? (as set by Miktar)? Isn?t the point to discuss different ideas and insights ? without insults? All I see is ?the great Miktar? coming down like a ton of bricks, writing enormously long posts to quash the opposition, trying to browbeat everyone into accepting your opinions.
You also need to remember that the people you are insulting are your customers.

This is my last post on this matter, as I think most people can understand the points that I have raised. Time to think of some interesting threads.....

[Squirly]

Dude, seriously, the only one on a high horse here is you. Why? Because you won't admit that your argument doesn't work in the real world, has been shot down several times already and yet... you're just repeating everything you've said earlier. You're not even "talking about different ideas" because to you "piracy is wrong no matter what" - so you're a hypocrite too.

Please, just stop.

[Miktar]

Accusing me of being high on my horse, but not bothering to refute anything I said with facts... well. Sounds like ad hominem if I ever saw it.


Your argument about "people would never buy it anyway" is fallacious. Why would they pirate it if they didn't want it?

Buying something, and wanting something, are two different things. I never said they wouldn't want it - I said that if someone pirated something, they probably wouldn't have bought it in the first place - or they'll buy it later.

dangarratt: You're the one making it personal. I'm getting annoyed because you constantly show that you're not actually listening, and I'm tired of talking to someone who doesn't want to listen.

Oh, and I love this classic:


You also need to remember that the people you are insulting are your customers.

This is the part where I tell you to go **** yourself, because I have zero respect or consideration for you now. I can't believe you'd stoop so low, as to play the 'I PAY YOUR SALARY' card. How childish.

I'm not on a high horse.
I'm not trying to brow-beat anyone into thinking my way.

I don't care if people agree with piracy or not - I'm simply giving my side of the story. The problem is, *you* are the one who has beef with my opinion - not the other way around.

The problem is, in your mind, I am 100&#37; wrong and you are 100% right - and I disagree with that. I believe this issue is bigger than this, and you're the one that constantly narrows it down.

So now I'm *telling* you - if you don't like the heat, get out of the goddamn kitchen - but I won't stand by and have you try and play the high-and-mighty "I'm your customer" card, because that gets my back up faster than anything.

You are NOT my customer, I do NOT work for you. Get that through your head.

[Gldm]

To paraphrase my initial response: The "they would never have bought it anyway" argument is one that we all use to comfort ourselves that we're not *really* doing anything wrong.


It also agrees with the supply/demand theory of economics, which is quite well supported with evidence. So whether you think it's a justification or not, it happens to be reality.



To expand: I used to use it - then I grew up and I realised that I was stealing someone else's work. So I stopped pirating. And - wonder of wonders - I suddenly started BUYING the games that I previously would have pirated.


Really? All the games you would have pirated or just some of them? I seriously doubt it's all, but there's really no way to know is there, so what's your point? That moral conviction is good for sales? If you can instill that in people you should be working for a church, since they've been trying to do that for quite some time now.



Your argument about "people would never buy it anyway" is fallacious. Why would they pirate it if they didn't want it?


Explain what fallacy is being applied here. This argument is consistent with modern economic theory and models. "Want" is not a binary value, but a spectrum based on perceived demand and cost. Just because they are willing to obtain it at the cost of piracy (and there is a cost, though it's mostly involved in finding the source and defeating the copy protection) does not mean they are willing to pay a higher cost. If everyone was willing to pay anything to obtain a product, you could have products with infinite prices, since by your argument people would buy them. This has been shown time and again to be untrue.



You quote "facts". Don't you think the programs/games you mentioned, as well as the companies that produced them, may be did / are doing well despite the piracy? Maybe the reason the sales figures and piracy figures are so high is because the game/program is really good, and therefore everyone wants it. "Oh look, sales figures are high, and piracy figures are high, therefore sales figures must be high because of piracy" is a *huge* flight of fancy. And, yes, I understand the viral marketing idea.


Sticking with my prior example of GalCiv2, do you really think a 4X genre game from a tiny company that produces like one game every 5 years is going to become the #1 seller at WalMart, a non-specialist retailer, just because the game is good? The game doesn't fit that store's target market well enough to dominate its retail offerings. The most logical explanation is that demand was driven through consumer awareness outside of normal advertising and review channels. Gee wonder how that happened.



Miktar, you're so high on your horse I can barely see you. What?s the point of having a forum where everyone just toes the ?party line? (as set by Miktar)? Isn?t the point to discuss different ideas and insights ? without insults? All I see is ?the great Miktar? coming down like a ton of bricks, writing enormously long posts to quash the opposition, trying to browbeat everyone into accepting your opinions.
You also need to remember that the people you are insulting are your customers.


And this has what bearing on the discussion? If your points were valid you wouldn't need this kind of thing to give your argument weight.



This is my last post on this matter, as I think most people can understand the points that I have raised. Time to think of some interesting threads.....

I noticed your last post in the Piracy thread was the one just before I handed you your ass on a platter with supporting evidence. Shall I repost it here?


Oh and for those interested in a nice read on the real-world impact of piracy according to a game developer: http://www.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1&AID=106741

[kHayne]

@dang: Have mp3's killed the music industry? Or rather reinvigorated it with itunes and ipods and downloadable singles and getting artists heard by millions who would previously have been left stranded and blackballed by scared-to-experiment record labels?

Come on. Piracy is not black-and-white and everyone knows it.

[Azimuth]

In the words of Anders Frid&#233;n, vocalist of In Flames, "Download our songs. They're worth stealing."

I buy loads of CDs, but most of the bands I'm totally into these days (Finntroll, Ensiferum, Turisas, Korpiklaani), I'd not have even known about if a friend of mine didn't constantly feed me reams of mp3s. When I find something I like, I buy the CD.

Nine Inch Nails made their entire new album available for download - and it has since sold nearly half a million copies, in just a few months. People who are going to buy the CD are going to buy the CD, and those that aren't, won't.

[Gldm]

God I wish I had readable scans of Open Source Man 2 to post in this thread right now. I hate repeating work I've already done. :P

[Sir)Kickasselot]

Miktar I think that dangarratt is right in the respect that he says you do not treat other forum goers with any respect.I think you are way to agressive and have a kind of "Holier than thou" attitude.This is a large reason why allot of other people are not voicing their opinions about piracy,They are afraid that you will rip them to shreds and belittle them,and rightly so.
I think you would do well to be abit more relaxed and be o.k about the fact that other people have a right to their opinion too.I am sure you will attack me for giving my opinion,but that's fine.There will never be interesting debates here,because everyone is scared ****less of you,and the few that do stand up and say something,are treated like ****.

[Miktar]

Miktar I think that dangarratt is right in the respect that he says you do not treat other forum goers with any respect.I think you are way to agressive and have a kind of "Holier than thou" attitude.This is a large reason why allot of other people are not voicing their opinions about piracy,They are afraid that you will rip them to shreds and belittle them,and rightly so.
I think you would do well to be abit more relaxed and be o.k about the fact that other people have a right to their opinion too.I am sure you will attack me for giving my opinion,but that's fine.There will never be interesting debates here,because everyone is scared ****less of you,and the few that do stand up and say something,are treated like ****.

Sir)Kickasselot, I don't believe the problem lay with me, but rather, the "Schatteng?nger" that people create of me. They see the 'Administrator' tag, and then automatically put me on a 'holier than thou' attitude. My attitude is certainly not holier than thou, and I am not being aggressive.

But people think I am, and I can't help that.

I understand everyone has a right to their opinion, and I fully expect everyone to voice that opinion when and where they want to. However, just because someone disagrees with your opinion vehemently, is no reason to automatically assume they are trying to rip *you* to shreds - they're just voicing their opinion.

There are hundreds of interesting debates here, Sir)Kickasselot, I'm surprised you've not noticed them. You are basing your opinion of this forum on a single thread, and your own image of me you've created. The fact that you keep throwing 'holier than thou' around is a good indicator of that - I don't consider myself holier than thou at all - ask anyone who knows me, and I'm actually quite timid and unassuming.

But I know what I know - and I know it because I've worked hard for it.

Notice that I have not attacked you for what you said - I'm putting in the effort to explain myself, because I get the feeling you have the wrong idea about things.

I respect anyone who proves themselves worthy of that - and I know that very few people will respect me unless I put in the effort to do things they can respect.

And I do that, I really do. However - when opinions clash, there is the problem of putting personal justifications ahead of what is the right thing to do.

dangarratt may think I don't respect him, but that's 100% untrue - I happily read every other post he makes on the forum, because I know he contributes a lot! And I enjoy reading what he has to say.

However, him and I have hit a professional set of clashing ideals - and as mature human beings aught to do - we've discussed them at length but find ourselves at a stalemate.

I know I'm right, and all I want is to have him see what I'm trying to say: and at the same time, he's trying to do the same with me. I appreciate his efforts, I really do. He's giving me a lot of challenge, and I have to continually rethink my own ideas to make sure that they're what a I really believe. It's not like I just make this up as I go along.

When this whole piracy discussion fades in a few weeks, the discussion fades. dangaratt and I will continue to talk about other stuff, and probably end up not butting heads again until we either come across another professional difference, or the piracy debate comes up afresh.

It's called 'building relationships'.

Notice I've not threatened to ban dangaratt? Notice I've never once brought my power as an admin into this? That, people, is being 'holier than thou' - when you abuse your power to put someone else down.

And I'm not doing that.

So really, stop attacking me already. :P

[Sir)Kickasselot]

That was a courteous and nice response, bet that was hard for you ;).
No,im just joking,but if you are they way you just eplained you are,I urge you to make more of an effort to show it.Sometimes,it does seem that you come off as rude or abrasive.

[Miktar]

It wasn't hard at all, but it did take a serious chunk out of the time I could have spent working on the magazine.

The thing about making more of an effort to show it, is that I'm trying to rely on my actions speaking louder than words - if I had to, in front of every post, make a clear and concise explanation of why I don't hate their guts, I just think their opinion is wrong - I'd never get anything done.

People need to stop assigning me motivations so quickly - rather hang around, get to know me. That's what I would do, and technically, what I will be doing: I *have* to be here every day, after all. :P

[Etienne]

I would just like to state that there is no pirated ANYTHING on my PC! For the first time ever! I installed Vista this weekend and I am piracy free! :D It feels good! :D

But wait... it's the OEM version of Windows, which means I can only use it on this PC. If I want to upgrade my PC, I will have to buy Windows AGAIN... wait... WHAT?! No **** that ****. Now who's stealing who's money, MS?

Guess I only have two options in the future. Get a crack for the OEM version (aka. Pirate) or give up on games and go to Ubuntu.

I don't really want to stop playing games... so I guess I'll pirate. There's no way in heck that I'm paying TWICE for the same product. For everything other than gaming, Ubuntu should do just fine... Free software movement, here I come!

[dangarratt]

Hi everyone, thanks for the comments and responses.
I'm glad I've made a few people think about their positions, and at least come up with a better(?) justification. Sir)kickassalot - thanks for your comments, and I'm glad Mik didn't lump you in the same boat as me! I think I'm the only one who's got him riled on this topic!

@miktar: I obviously hit a sore point with the "customer" reference - wasn't intended. I didn't mean you work for me therefore you better agree with me - I meant that you represent the mag that I and others buy, and that treating your customers with disrespect isn't altogether....smart. My point was that we can have this discussion without insults, etc. People calling other people "stupid" is a bit boring really. It also tends to weaken the point being made. Of course, maybe I'm misinterpreting some of your comments - tone of voice is easy to misread in a forum.

@gldm: Thanks for the lecture in Economics One. I did do this at varsity you know, and am kinda in the field.... just to correct a small flaw in your argument: the graph of supply starts at price point zero. That means at zero price there will be zero supply....
Sorry - couldn't let that one go - be careful lecturing a CA in economic theory - this thread could go downhill to extremely boring extremely fast! ;)

[Miktar]

@dangaratt: Fair enough.

But you don't comment on any of the points we've put forth - does that mean you want to leave this as is, or just don't have anything to say?

If we're to leave this as is, I'm fine with that - I just want to know.

[DaBaish]

Wow, so much tension on this thread...ummm...I believe it's...crap, what was this thread all about? Free windows, right? If I knew how to use Linux easily, I'd be using it ages ago, but aren't most games only compaitible with Windows?

Aboot the discussion between Miks and that other dude. Ummm, I'd hafta say that both of you make certain points on both of your sides. Mainly because I don't understand what you guys were discussing...that and uhhh...yeah...Windows...free...yes...

I use copied software, but I don't sell it, I share like Miks said in the other foum. It sucks that most of my distant family (which are some of my closest friends) don't understand that. But hey! Free country right? You do what you do and I'll do what I'll do.

I just wanna say, "Miks...I love yooooooou!". Heehee, thanks for standing up fo copied stuff.

[Miktar]

You're on thin ice, DaBaish. Don't post to threads when you have nothing to say, or when you don't read the entire thread, or the article that the thread is about.

[Gldm]

@gldm: Thanks for the lecture in Economics One. I did do this at varsity you know, and am kinda in the field.... just to correct a small flaw in your argument: the graph of supply starts at price point zero. That means at zero price there will be zero supply....
Sorry - couldn't let that one go - be careful lecturing a CA in economic theory - this thread could go downhill to extremely boring extremely fast! ;)


I'm sorry, exactly when do you believe I claimed there would be something other than zero supply at zero price? That would be the case where a manufacturer decides it's pointless to produce something since they can't sell it or a profit. If I recall I was talking about the absurd implication of your argument that there would be a non-zero demand at infinite price, which is completely across the graph. And yes, I also took Economics at University, so your appeal to authority leaves me unfazed.

[dangarratt]

@ miktar - leave as is - I think our points are clear? I jotted down a few other responses, etc, but this could get monotonous.
@gldm - see above comment.

[Miktar]

Then this issue is over.

Lock.