Desktop Dungeons

[Nandrew]

An alternate idea for BludToPowa , and I'm not sure how good it would work, would be to swap HP out for MP. Turn on Bludtopowa, spend HP as if they were MP.

Maybe 2HP = 1MP or have it based on level/2.

Unfortunately, that starts becoming rather similar to how it *used* to work ... and people generally hated that idea. :P

Having that glyph drain on HP presented quite a few problems when we tried it. If the ratio was too generous, players would be able to blatantly exploit healing glyphs / bloodpower in a positive feedback loop that would effectively grant infinite health. Making it weak enough to avoid exploitation ... well, people just didn't deem it powerful enough, and in all fairness it really wasn't. ;)

[varuka]

Tiki Tooki definitely feels underpowered. Only the dodge bonus is worth the effort. First strike doesn't come in handy often enough for the 80 piety cost, and most characters that don't already have it can use a glyph for it, or don't need it. Poison has no synergy with Tiki, and the gold bonus isn't that great compared to the effort.

On the other hand, Mysteria, Pactmaker, Binlor, Earthmother, and Dracul are all too powerful.

Overall, the new Gods system makes the game a little too easy. Most bosses could already be killed just by throwing fireballs and leveling up starting at lvl 7, but with the addition of more ways to increase your max mana (and in Binlor's case, instantly get to level 10), it's kind of ridiculous.

Even the campaign isn't very difficult with proper piety-abuse.

Edit: Err, am I the first person to beat the campaign or something?
Edit2: Oh, actually, I can now think of a good use for Tiki Tooki's gold boon: Campaigns. If you added in more & longer campaigns, it gives a good incentive to take Tiki, or even an entirely gold based god like the old Glitterfinger. Oh, and more and longer campaigns would be awesome.

[Alpha Werewolf]

Overall, the new Gods system makes the game a little too easy. Most bosses could already be killed just by throwing fireballs and leveling up starting at lvl 7, but with the addition of more ways to increase your max mana (and in Binlor's case, instantly get to level 10), it's kind of ridiculous.

I think the new system is a lot less broken than the old one, actually.

And regarding Tiki-Tooki, I agree that the first strike cost should be lowered, especially due to the -1 piety whenever you get hit.

[XuaXua]

OK, weird glitch.

Maybe?

Human Tinker in Factory worshipper of Dracul.

I land on a HALPMEH glyph.
I click on the big + symbol of the glyph on the right to pick it up.

It just disappears.

I don't get a +x to my attack as though I destroyed it.
I don't get it in my magic inventory (I only have a Bysepps and it was just applied earlier).

It just vanishes.

If this is a side-effect of worshipping Dracul, there wasn't a notification on the screen about it.


IIRC, in the older version HALPMEH disappeared, right? I guess the image was still there, maybe?

[GG Crono]

I still haven't unlocked the campaign. Having trouble unlocking the special races. (Namely, the ones that require you to beat Dungeon X with Class Y).

Anyone want to share any ProTips to that effect?

[varuka]

I still haven't unlocked the campaign. Having trouble unlocking the special races. (Namely, the ones that require you to beat Dungeon X with Class Y).

Anyone want to share any ProTips to that effect?

I'm actually interested in making a comprehensive strategy guide, but don't really have anywhere to put it. Maybe an "Advanced Strategies" section to the wiki or something? It'd be a lot more in-depth and number-crunching than anything in the strategy section.

[GG Crono]

Go for it! I for one would appreciate it, :)

[VanVeen]

I had to register just to say how freaking awesome this game is! I can't stop playing; it is definitely the kind of game you can get a quick round in, but all those cool things to unlock gives it a lot of staying power. I've played for over four hours just today, and every time I actually win (not often) I makes me want to play even more. The way it boils down into a sort of puzzle game, where every class, race and dungeon gives you another problem to solve, it is just so good.

I'm definitely going to recommend it to some friends, cause man once you learn what you're really doing, it is so fun. I just finished a great round as a human rogue worshiping Binlord, and the winning outcome was totally unexpected but great anyway. I really didn't think "screw it, i'll just mine my way to level ten then fight the boss" would work the way it did (I would like to believe it was my well planned killings), I was so psyched, cause I had been trying to clear the normal dungeon with that rogue for awhile.

This game would be so perfect as a DSiWare title, that'd be so much better than anything else you can get on there.

[XuaXua]

Question: Why is it specified as "onscreen" bloodstains in the God summaries (for Earthmother and Golden Guardian)? I have yet to discover an "offscreen" bloodstain. Is that an attempt to reference to a bloodstain that was absorbed by the Blood Mage, perhaps?

[varuka]

Question: Why is it specified as "onscreen" bloodstains in the God summaries (for Earthmother and Golden Guardian)? I have yet to discover an "offscreen" bloodstain. Is that an attempt to reference to a bloodstain that was absorbed by the Blood Mage, perhaps?

I think they mean un-used by bloodmage / vampire, but I could also imagine a situation where a Half Dragon kills something and the knockback would leave the bloodstain in the darkness. Not sure if a) the blood can end up in the unexplored dungeon or b) if it does end up in the darkness, how would it affect the blood count for those gods.

I still haven't unlocked the campaign. Having trouble unlocking the special races. (Namely, the ones that require you to beat Dungeon X with Class Y).

Anyone want to share any ProTips to that effect?

I'm adding an "advanced strategies" section to the wiki, as a starter. Although it doesn't have anything specific as, say, beating Crypt with an Assassin, I'm fairly sure the strategies within would allow a player to beat any dungeon without the use of race/class/deity advantages.

[XuaXua]

b) if it does end up in the darkness, how would it affect the blood count for those gods.

According to either god, it doesn't get counted. Thanks for explaining; I think you are right about the Half-Dragon knockback.

I'm adding an "advanced strategies" section to the wiki, as a starter.

What's the difference between basic and advanced?

[varuka]

What's the difference between basic and advanced?

I put it in its own section for two reasons:

One, I'm like 1/2 done, and it's already one of the biggest pages on the wiki. I thought it would kind feel strange to crunch it in with the "tips and tricks" strategy section that already exists.

Two, the other strategies are more "here's something cool you can do".. and what I'm writing is a about the meta-game, and putting together pieces from other sections of the wiki to maximize results. For example, it mentions on the leveling page that killing all monsters with no EXP bonus will get you to level 8 (as a foot note!). What it doesn't mention anywhere is the amounts of bonus EXP you would need to generate to get to levels 9 / 10 (though it's easily calculated), why it's so important to get level 9 or 10, the most effective ways to get the bonus EXP, etc.

So far it reads more like a strategy guide than an informative wiki page. I feel like that's the easiest way to empower players to start making use of the information, but it doesn't go well on a wiki. :\ If it doesn't belong there, I'm fine with it being removed, or the information being more spread about.

[XuaXua]

I think the wiki needs to be more like a wiki, in that certain words should be linked to the appropriate pages.

[q 3]

I've been steadily clearing all the bonus dungeons with each class and have a few random thoughts:

I agree with those asking for gold not to carry over between runs. Or at least have it not carry over in ranked play and maybe also in the challenge dungeons. It makes things too easy and encourages grinding, which is in my mind the opposite of what DD is about. Setting starting gold at like 10-20% of maximum and doubling gold gain from all sources would sound about right to me, although the exact numbers could stand to be tweaked.

I still don't quite get why the Warlord is the challenge class for the Library. The only real "trick" there is that Imps are likely to be your best high-level fodder, but they can be difficult to kill until you've explored a lot; that isn't much of a challenge, though. IMHO, Paladins are the toughest class to beat the Library with, since it essentially nullifies two of their bonuses.

Speaking of Imps, right now they're barely annoyances. A more devious approach might be to have them teleport the player randomly (i.e., cast WEYTWUT). Maybe also give them first strike?

The other dungeon-specific monsters could probably also use some tweaking. For example, give Armors a few more HP (maybe 2 HP per their level) so that it's not so easy to kill a level 9 when you're only level 1 (plus I don't think that would make them any tougher otherwise).

Nagas are probably more of a psychological threat than an actual threat, since when screwing around after defeating bosses I've found their weakening ability to be an acceptable loss in limited numbers, but as the only permanent malus in the game (other than ****ed-off deities) they are a bit odd; maybe increase their weakening ability but make it temporary (e.g., -30% to your next attack only).

Vampires are pretty boring as it is now, since their effect only triggers once and once the bonus HP is lost it doesn't regenerate, meaning you can hit them and then heal up before fighting them for real. Maybe lower their life steal to 10% or 1 HP per their level, but make it trigger every time you step next to them; that would create an interesting dynamic that encourages you to not start a fight with them unless you can finish it right away.

Yup. "Set". 75% physical resist would be pretty hax.

A Monk or a Gorgon can get pretty close to that with Plate Mail or a Tower Shield (or a ridiculous 80 percent with both - if there were a public debug version, I'd check to verify my suspicion that Dracul could then boost that to 100 percent, making you invincible, since his resist boon is cumulative). And items are quite a bit easier to get than boons. Maybe disallow those classes from buying armor? It doesn't really make much sense for Monks to be equipping heavy armor and wielding swords anyway.

Somewhat unrelated, but it seems like the Vampire race has been changed in the most recent version? Now you can explore the entire dungeon without dying, since your HP will never reduce below 1. That means the optimal strategy is to explore as much as possible before you gain a level (since your increased damage and first strike makes leveling fairly easy, even at 1 HP). I think that makes them way overpowered, but it also just doesn't feel much like a vampire; they should be constantly looking for prey, not running around everywhere and basically being a pacifist until the entire dungeon is mapped out. I'm not really sure what the solution would be here, though, since the old style obviously had its own problems.

Finally, I expect the deity system will continue to be revised, but one suggestion I would make is to try to increase the incentives for early, faithful worship. Glowing Guardian in particular seems to be best used as an endgame desperation move; ignore him until you are out of health potions, then start worship during a boss fight for the instant HP refill and probably enough initial piety for a second HP refill (or instant death protection, in the few instances where that would be more beneficial). Binlor can also be used right before your last level up for the extra max HP and enough piety for his wall smash to give you a few extra tiles to explore. Increasing the piety gains during worship and decreasing starting piety would help, as would making the default boons more incremental, e.g. bonuses on level up or favored action. Gods should want you to follow them early and faithfully, not **** around and then ask for their help at the last minute. Deities that give you penalties at the start of worship should probably have some sort of offset - e.g., maybe Mysteria can give you BURNDAYRAZ if you don't already have it, Jehora can give a one-time damage boost of a random percent, etc.

Hopefully this doesn't sound too much like a list of complaints! I really love the game.

[GG Crono]

^



You make some excellent points there.

Though, I've always found that "grinding" for gold between dungeons is as easy as doing a quick run or two as a Goblin Wizard. Though, the fact that it is that easy may mean that a reconsideration of the system may be in order.

PS: I unlocked Gorgon! Hooray! :D

[XuaXua]

Though, I've always found that "grinding" for gold between dungeons is as easy as doing a quick run or two as a Goblin Wizard.

Not a Goblin Tinkerer?

[sagittary]

Unfortunately, that starts becoming rather similar to how it *used* to work ... and people generally hated that idea. :P

Having that glyph drain on HP presented quite a few problems when we tried it. If the ratio was too generous, players would be able to blatantly exploit healing glyphs / bloodpower in a positive feedback loop that would effectively grant infinite health. Making it weak enough to avoid exploitation ... well, people just didn't deem it powerful enough, and in all fairness it really wasn't. ;)

The way I first though the current B2P worked was that anything that restored HP would instead restore MP ie exploration and health potions. In effect health potions would be 'converted' into mana potions when used with the glyph. Thus you'd trade restoring health for restoring mana.

[GG Crono]

So I found out just now that the Agnostic's Collar is still in the game. But unless I'm mistaken, you no longer have the option to renounce your religion. Does it still do anything?

Additional thought: Does anyone here ever do conversions? Seems to me like the benefits of doing so are minimal.

[Feynman]

Speaking of Imps, right now they're barely annoyances. A more devious approach might be to have them teleport the player randomly (i.e., cast WEYTWUT). Maybe also give them first strike?

I actually really like Imps the way they are now. Imps aren't supposed to be a major threat by themselves...they're just Imps, after all! As such, they're fairly weak, and an excellent target to get bonus XP from - with a catch. The catch being that Imps make the rest of the monsters in the dungeon indirectly more dangerous. Striking an Imp that teleports into an unexplored area does two things:

1. It negates the damage you dealt to the Imp, as it will be almost certainly be healed by the time you reach it.
2. It consumes your resources, by forcing you to explore and regenerate any lost health/mana used in striking the Imp, precious regen that could have been used more productively.

As a result, the damage an Imp inflicts on your tends to show itself near the end of a game, when you realize with horror that you don't have enough resources remaining to kill the boss. I've had more then one otherwise good run go sour from Imps chipping away at my unexplored tiles.

Imps are a gamble. If they teleport to a square you've already uncovered, huzzah! Easy bonus XP! If they teleport to a black area, crap, you just wasted resources. How risky attacking an Imp for bonus XP is depends on how much of the map you've already uncovered, so the player must decide how much of their resources they're willing to risk - be too aggressive before uncovering much of the map and you might find yourself short of resources at the final stretch. Play it too safe, and you might find your level too low to tackle the boss. Imps are one of the more cleverly designed monsters, since their danger comes not from status effects or damage, but from the indirect consequences of their teleportation.

Having Imps teleport the player ala Weytwut would be too much. If an Imp teleports away, you lose a handful of squares and focus your attention on a different target. If an Imp teleports the player, however, the following scenarios become all too likely:

- landing in a completely unexplored area, causing the player to lose a full 9 exploration tiles outright, plus the tiles lost trying to find a new target

- being trapped behind a monster too strong to kill.

Weytwut exists as a spell of last resort. It's used when the player is in such a bad situation that no matter where they end up, it literally cannot get any worse. If a player hits a wall where the only accessible monsters are too strong, Weytwut can save the day, turning an unwinnable map into a victory. And if you land behind an unkillable monster? Hey, you were already going to die as it was, so even if your situation didn't improve, it certainly didn't get any worse. In the player's hands, Weytwut provides a chance at escape from an unwinnable situation. In an enemy's hands, it would be far too random and powerful to be fun.

[Chainsaw]

How about some achievements? They can be separated into categories ranging from easy to impossible.

Example of a easy achievements:

-Finish a normal dungeon
-Finish a ranked dungeon
-etc

Impossible:

-As Wizard, gain 50 piety with Taurog
-Complete Crypt challenge while worshiping Dracul

Just an idea that I think might be fun

EDIT: These of course apart from dungeon-end achievements. Maybe completing them give bonuses like the challenge dungeons?