Desktop Dungeons

[coendou]

i really really really can't wait for the next version, to bad i was to late with ver4 to get a lot of bugs that aren't said yet, better luck next update ;) keep up the good work

[salejemaster]

can't stop looking at the 0.05 screenshot, looks super cool

[Speusippus]

Now THAT looks sexy. I love the 'estimate', that's the one thing that's holding me back - I don't want to sit and figure out my chances.

Hmm.....


Hmmmmmmmm.....

But.......

Sitting there figuring out (not my chances but) the exact outcome of each battle was part of the draw of the game for me!

(No surprise: The class with a 20% dodge chance was my least favorite!)

No one else, though?

[salejemaster]

calculating was one of the appeal for me too, but I think it will turn out good :)

[Nandrew]

Hi Carl, nice to see you in an online context. :P

---

Regarding the decision about combat outcomes ... yeah, it's a difficult one to make (how much of the challenge needs to be retained? Which challenges are meaningful and fun, and which ones are grinds?), but something that I agreed with when mulling it over with D and Aeq was the fact that a next-hit prediction system would be useful. It wouldn't undermine the entire combat system (since it only predicts the very next hit, and doesn't really spoil the fun for long-term planning), but at the same time it should help streamline decisions which most players may regard as "trivial": running about on level 1 or 2 and fighting those low-level monsters becomes a bit of a chore for veteran players (at least in my opinion) and sometimes it's nice to know at a glance that your next stroke will kill a monster without taking the time first to confirm what you already suspect.

In addition, getting a message such as "DEATH" or "POISON" from the predictive system doesn't necessarily mean that you should avoid the monster: half of the fun in Desktop Dungeons is figuring out a way to kill monsters which your character by all rights should not be able to topple anyway! ;)

Of course, this is all bluster and whatnot. I'd like to see how it turns out when put to the test. If a significant portion of the players are against it, it can be removed in the version after. :)

[salejemaster]

Hi Carl, nice to see you in an online context. :P

---

Regarding the decision about combat outcomes ... yeah, it's a difficult one to make (how much of the challenge needs to be retained? Which challenges are meaningful and fun, and which ones are grinds?), but something that I agreed with when mulling it over with D and Aeq was the fact that a next-hit prediction system would be useful. It wouldn't undermine the entire combat system (since it only predicts the very next hit, and doesn't really spoil the fun for long-term planning), but at the same time it should help streamline decisions which most players may regard as "trivial": running about on level 1 or 2 and fighting those low-level monsters becomes a bit of a chore for veteran players (at least in my opinion) and sometimes it's nice to know at a glance that your next stroke will kill a monster without taking the time first to confirm what you already suspect.

In addition, getting a message such as "DEATH" or "POISON" from the predictive system doesn't necessarily mean that you should avoid the monster: half of the fun in Desktop Dungeons is figuring out a way to kill monsters which your character by all rights should not be able to topple anyway! ;)

Of course, this is all bluster and whatnot. I'd like to see how it turns out when put to the test. If a significant portion of the players are against it, it can be removed in the version after. :)

totally agree with all this, keep up the good work ;),
Also I have just noticed that I have started kind of trolling this thread, like replying to every post and for that I'm sorry :P
Further I was thinking when .5 comes about it wouldn't be a bad idea to upload the game to http://gamejolt.com/ its a good place to set up some free marketing for the game, the more player are exposed to it the better :)

[Miktar]

Sitting there figuring out (not my chances but) the exact outcome of each battle was part of the draw of the game for me!

Understandable, but when going for a rapid, fun experience, and dare I say, casual, you want to keep as much of the game automated and transparent, letting the player make the important critical choices, not bog them down with D&D-level numerics.

[marknau]

Nandrew,

Fantastic game, really elegant idea executed well. Great job!

Looks like you've also got a lot of strong ideas and energy for expanding it. Looking forward to future versions! Please allow me to put one suggestion in your head about the metagame.

To make it short, imagine keeping track of the player's maximum score with each race/class combination. Show his max scores for each combo on a big grid (currently that would be 5x12 = 60). Your campaign score is the sum of all those numbers. Then, unlock certain items based on your campaign score. So, as a dumb example, you get an extra store in the level once you've hit a 300,000 campaign score. You get +1 starting HP at 500,000. Etc.

This encourages the player to play every race-class combo, which seems cool. It also encourages people to go back and try to optimize their play for every combo. It will really expand the legs of the game without affecting the cool short-burst play length you've got going.

Feel free to use, ignore, modify at your discretion.

Thanks for the fun game!

[Speusippus]

Hey, I'm officially the best Berserker!

Number 33 baby....

[DukeOFprunes]

And now, you got Tigsource DING!

[Nandrew]

Oh, DukeOFprunes, you living legend you! You're going to punt this thing all the way to the moon, aren'tcha?

@marknau:

I've been mulling over a similar idea, perhaps for a later version of this game, where such a cumulative score would inspire gamers to try different race/class combos. Funnily enough, I didn't think about attaching actual awards to these milestones! It's a great idea, and one that I'll probably start work on once I've stabilised and greatly improved the score / achievements system (currently it's distinctly "meh" :P)

@salejemaster:

Gamejolt sounds like a cool idea. ;) I see that they recently had a "Rogue" contest as well, so I'll be looking at some o' them games. I don't know if DD has ever really been eligible for the title of "Roguelike", but I still like taking what I can from the genre.

[salejemaster]

dare I say it but I think DD is a casual roguelike in the sense as Plants vs Zombies is a casual tower defense game

[Miktar]

That's the idea, sure - but play some more roguelikes like anything from Chunsoft, and you'll see that calculating hit odds is pretty much at the opposite end of the spectrum of the genre.

[moldar]

First off - I registered just to comment on this game. Most excellent piece of work! Nice job!

As I was playing, it took me a while to realize that the gold carried over from game to game. At one point, I thought that the more classes I unlocked, the more gold I started with. At that point, I thought it was a brilliant idea!

Then, of course, I realized that wasn't the way it worked. However, perhaps it could be? Also, maybe you can add additional starting gold for achieving various accomplishments - but only count them on games where the boss is killed. Because, it is far too easy to start and retire and get plenty of achievements.

Maybe get "no mana potions used" across 10 different plays with a boss kill and start with +1 gold, etc.

Make sense?

Anyways - you have hooked me on this game and I will keep an eye on it!

Well done!

[salejemaster]

thats a sounds like a good idea moldar because that would then eliminate the "a few games grind" that you have to do to get gold before attempting a serious run

[moldar]

Thanks! Glad you like the idea!

I saw a discussion on another "forum" that mentioned that someone felt like they were "leveling up" the game with the unlocking of classes, glyphs, monsters, etc. This was after my "misunderstanding", of course.

I figure that I'd rather "grind" out a lot of achievements, semi-serious playthroughs, etc in my attempt to get a high score (Note - I only have one decent score so far - #18!) Instead of avoiding spending gold until I have enough to get everything on a level a few times in a row, hoping to get lucky with a boss that isn't impossible for my current character race/class combo.

Anyways - back to playing!

[mckertis]

Okay, several questions here :
1. Why would i want to know the attack percentage ? Is that somehow useful ? I dont get it.
2. Why is it that sometimes i kill a monster in one hit and he doesnt bite back, and sometimes he does, even though its a monster with no "first strike" ?
3. Is Bloodmage starting magic actually supposed to be useful ?
4. How is it even remotely possible to kill bosses with Priest and Thief trees ? I happen to win a Priest game because i waited for Wraith boss to appear, but with Thief or Monk ? I have no idea how can anyone ever win with those.
5. A small oversight : resistance items appear before an actual danger, for example shops sell poison resist when snakes arent unlocked yet.

[Almost]

Okay, several questions here :
1. Why would i want to know the attack percentage ? Is that somehow useful ? I dont get it.

Yeah, it's not really well explained in the game. The idea is that you have a base damage number that you do not see, and the percent number shows how it is affected by bonuses. The main point is that bonuses like +30% attack increase this percent number by 30, and thus are a percent of the unseen base attack number and not of the total attack. The base attack is 5*yourlevel.

2. Why is it that sometimes i kill a monster in one hit and he doesnt bite back, and sometimes he does, even though its a monster with no "first strike" ?.

Regarding monsters that do not have the first strike ability: If you attack somebody that is lower level than you you automatically get first strike against the monster. If you attack somebody of the same or a higher level than you they will attack at the same time as you, meaning you are hurt even if you are killing them.

3. Is Bloodmage starting magic actually supposed to be useful ?.

Heh, I feel the same. Just consider it a free glyph to convert to a skill bonus.

4. How is it even remotely possible to kill bosses with Priest and Thief trees ? I happen to win a Priest game because i waited for Wraith boss to appear, but with Thief or Monk ? I have no idea how can anyone ever win with those..

Thief potions heal both health and mana, so you can stockpile a lot of regeneration for a single battle.
In case you are unsure of how things work, every monster that has been hurt will heal his level in health points for each tile that you explore, and you will heal your level in health points. In the case of the monk, you heal twice your level in health points.
As a monk, you can often attack a boss a few times until you are at a very low health, explore a few tiles (healing you 18 each and him only 10 each) and then attack again. Since you have more health regen than him you can keep doing this and you should be able to eventually beat the boss. For this to work, it is ideal that you have a lot of attack so that each hit on him will hurt him as much as possible, thus I recommend being a human monk. Note that -50% attack on the monk is the percent modifier; each glyph you convert will increase this modifier by +10%, so it is possible to have your damage modifier become positive again and thus do full damage while still taking half damage. Also, LEMMISI allows you to reveal tiles that cannot otherwise be reached, allowing you to continue such an attack heal a bit attack pattern for even longer.

[mckertis]

The idea is that you have a base damage number that you do not see, and the percent number shows how it is affected by bonuses. The main point is that bonuses like +30% attack increase this percent number by 30, and thus are a percent of the unseen base attack number and not of the total attack. The base attack is 5*yourlevel.

Yes, i get that. What i dont get is why would i need to know the percentage. Why is it shown on the HUD ? The attack is already a total number, i dont see what is there to be gained from knowing how many +% you have. Isnt it irrelevant ?

As a monk, you can often attack a boss a few times until you are at a very low health, explore a few tiles (healing you 18 each and him only 10 each) and then attack again.

Um, yeah...i'd like to see how its possible to gain level 9 and still have tiles to open. Maybe it could happen, but what are the chances of that ?

[dislekcia]

Yes, i get that. What i dont get is why would i need to know the percentage. Why is it shown on the HUD ? The attack is already a total number, i dont see what is there to be gained from knowing how many +% you have. Isnt it irrelevant ?

We're spending a lot of time thinking and debating about the information shown to the player and the interface in general. Trust me, the interface you're seeing is going to be changing quite a bit :) Comments like this one help us refine the experience and make it easier for players to pick up, which is always a good thing, thanks.

Um, yeah...i'd like to see how its possible to gain level 9 and still have tiles to open. Maybe it could happen, but what are the chances of that ?

You'd be surprised. We've had some really high scores with monks, so the top players are getting lots of exploring done once they're high level. Keep playing, I'm sure you'll be able to tell us what they've been doing soon enough.