Desktop Dungeons

[Tyroie]

Hey, I just found this game and have been loving it. :)

I came here to make some suggestions but it sounds like you're already working on most of them.

Though there's one more thing - in ranked games, sometimes it's not possible to get to level 2 without exploring a ton of the map first. I decide to restart a lot because I feel like this kills my odds of winning. Does anyone else run into this a lot?

[Nandrew]

@moldar: there may be one or two experiments related to monster movement, I'll just have to be careful because it's a departure from one of the game's core dynamics ... it may well be done in a different way, so we'll see how that goes. ;)

@Tyroie: Map balancing is definitely a concern, though I don't know if I'll be able to get to it immediately. For now, I'm focusing on making games quicker and more convenient so that frustration is minimised.

[iceblademush]

Some more random suggestions, take em or leave em, or might inspire something from your side? :)


In regards to moving monsters, could you not just do it in the way like the random teleport glyph, except that its always only 1 space away and in the players direction? But i think moving monsters might change the pace/feel of the game. Although it could be quite fun. Memories of the ghost in bubble bobble! :)

Another gameplay suggestion, would be traps, if moving monsters stalked you, you could add traps in the way. Thiefs would avoid traps, for example a spiked pit, might just walk over it and do 10 hp of damage for example.

Another idea is a different attack spell, but was wondering how you would implement it and how it could be different from the standard fire ball spell. An idea would be life drain, so half the damage of a fireball, but half health goes back to you? Another idea would be push, so maybe half damage of a fireball, and pushes the monster back one space? Level Drain is another option, so it costs about 12 to cast, and drains the level of the monster.

Finally, secret unlockable classe/races, for example VAMPIRES, WEREWOLFS, BATTLEMAGES etc etc. Imagine how cool if you got your name in the high score and it says "Werewolf Battlemage" and people would be even more inspired to get a high score/unlock that class/combo.

Ok enough for now, take em or leave em, comments welcome! :)

[iceblademush]

Another suggestion:

How about the mage classes do more damage with the fireball? Or even start with Fireball or a Magic Missile spell? Then reduce their attack strength a bit more to balance this out. It could even be somethine like 1.5 x or 1.2 x damage as to not upset the balance too much, but more emphasis on casting spells rather than melee.

Another idea would be to make wizards classes attack with magic (Make attacks Magical) ?

Just some more random suggestions...

[The Dash]

My idea for movement would be as follows :

Monsters stand still if they are a higher level than you. Once they are two levels lower they start randomly wondering around. I mean they've been waiting for you to kill them for like ever and now they're bored.

So with a level 3 player, all the level 1 monsters will start randomly wandering around. and with a level 7, all the monsters level 5 and lower walk around the dungeon

Alternatively. Instead of randomly wondering around, they all try to retreat back to unexplored places, so they dont get killed (Logic right?) The player has to balance killing lower level monsters before they retreat and killing higher levels to level up. Concentrate on killing higher levels all the time, and when you need that one or two xp to level up, you suddenly realize all those level 3 goats have hidden away, and you have to uncover tiles (and waste resources) in order to level up

[Speusippus]

No movement.

Movement would ruin the game.

If movement were added, you wouldn't have the same type of game anymore.

IMO.

[Chainsaw]

Was going to wait for v0.5 to download, but my curiosity has gotten the better of me. Just played my first round and loving it so far. You've really outdone yourself this time Nandrew.

[Azimuth]

No movement.

Movement would ruin the game.

If movement were added, you wouldn't have the same type of game anymore.

IMO.

Well, it's essentially a roguelike, and roguelikes traditionally have moving monsters. :P

[Miktar]

It's roguelike in that it's randomly generated, but I think DD has moved beyond being a pure roguelike into far more of a puzzle game. Otherwise, we may as well continue to call Diablo 2 and such, roguelikes, since they /are/ evolutions of the genre (and Diablo 1 was originally turn-based just like a roguelike).

I think DD's strength, is that nothing moves. If something did move, I'd rather it be a special circumstance thing than randomly appears, kind of like how Spelunky has random appearances of special areas/monsters.

[Chippit]

(and Diablo 1 was originally turn-based just like a roguelike).

K, excuse the derail here, but this is news to me. You have a link for that? I've always found Diablo's evolution from roguelikes quite interesting, but I didn't know it started out turn-based too.

[Azimuth]

It's roguelike in that it's randomly generated, but I think DD has moved beyond being a pure roguelike into far more of a puzzle game. Otherwise, we may as well continue to call Diablo 2 and such, roguelikes, since they /are/ evolutions of the genre (and Diablo 1 was originally turn-based just like a roguelike).

I think DD's strength, is that nothing moves. If something did move, I'd rather it be a special circumstance thing than randomly appears, kind of like how Spelunky has random appearances of special areas/monsters.

Oh, I do agree with you. I like DD just the way it is, and introducing (universal) movement would change it up quite dramatically. The occasional moving enemiy might be an interesting addition, though.

But DD is still largely a roguelike, and Speusippus's suggestion that movement would change the sort of game it is, is questionable. DD is the first roguelike - and it is a roguelike (and I'd say that traditional roguelikes are somewhat like puzzlers too) - I've played where the enemies don't move.

[Miktar]

I'd say traditional roguelikes are more Tactics than Puzzlers, though it's vague, since the reason I call it a Tactics is because each small situation you encounter is a kind of small puzzle that, once you figure it out, you deal with as just a tactical situation to consider).

In a way, this is uncharted territory really, since DD is unique in how it applies the roguelike conventions of randomly-generated dungeons, yet it forgos with almost all the rest of what the genre conventions are..

It's just the most recognizable genre (roguelike) to attribute to DD, but if you had to apply the same logic to another game, you could say that Borderlands is more FPS than RPG, because it's most noticable convention is FPS, and yet, it's equal parts loot-RPG...

The more I think of it, the more I'd say that DD certainly has a roguelike smell, but it's more 'inspired by' than really being in the genre, even obliquely.

Then again, I've been playing Shiren and Chocobo's Dungeon pretty much non-stop, so DD doesn't seem all that roguelike to me at all. :P

K, excuse the derail here, but this is news to me. You have a link for that? I've always found Diablo's evolution from roguelikes quite interesting, but I didn't know it started out turn-based too.

EDGE 210, page 105 - if you want to read the full article I can scan it for you.

"At first we had it so that you would take a step and then the monsters would. You would swing your sword and then the monsters got their chance. I think this was based on the Nethack or Rogue-style of game that Brevik liked a lot."- Erich Schaefer

Blizzard suggested switching to realtime combat, and a huge piece of Diablo fell into place.

"The moment I put the change in, clicked on a skeleton and my character walked over and smacked it to pieces, the clouds parted", says Brevik, who locked himself in his office for a week to rewrite the necessary code. "The magic was found."

Incidentially, Diablo was made by a team of friends, that landed a deal with Blizzard to get their game published. The team (Erick, Brevik and Erich's brother, Max Schaefer) was known as Condor Games. That's right, Blizzard didn't make Diablo, they just published it.

Condor was founded in 1993.

[Azimuth]

Incidentially, Diablo was made by a team of friends, that landed a deal with Blizzard to get their game published. The team (Erick, Brevik and Erich's brother, Max Schaefer) was known as Condor Games. That's right, Blizzard didn't make Diablo, they just published it.

That soft pitter-patter is the sound of fanboy tears upon their broken dreams.

[Chippit]

So Condor became Blizzard North, then, I presume? Interesting.

Anyway, enough derailing of Nandrew's thread, I think. This is what happens when he delays his new release.

[Nandrew]

GAH! Tell me about it! I'm elbow-deep in vampire arses and specially-themed dungeons, and the end still isn't anywhere in sight. D:

I've also been thinking recently about the classification of DD. It's probably more appropriate to say that it's "thematically" Roguelike more than anything else, drawing from some of the genre's overarching set pieces and actual design philosophies rather than raw game mechanics.

And in that respect, I'd have to agree with the idea of no monster movement. I won't be adding any Roguelike elements just because they're Roguelike things to do -- they have to make sense with the style of the game. That's why monsters don't move, characters don't enjoy raycast vision and the game is, in many ways, a much more deterministic experience. ;)

There will be an element of monster movement in the next version, but it's only in a *very* specific (and pretty rare) scenario and will be entirely player-initiated. I'm all for experimentation, I just don't want to change the game completely. ;)

[BlackShipsFillt]

So is it a turn-based-dungeon-crawling-RPG-puzzler then?

It still has very real roguelike attributes. A character that levels up and collects things, a random dungeon to explore. All the action is player initiated but its basically monster vs player combat, which is roguelike. Also most of the decisions in Desktop Dungeons are roguelike, choosing to initiate fights based on the relative stats of the hero and an enemy is typically roguelike.

The departure is in the exploration/healing/resource part... which does significantly alter the gameplay. And maybe that there is just the single dungeon. But other than that it definitely feels roguelike.

[Miktar]

Considering roguelike is the progenitor of practically all action-RPG to date, you could say that EVERYTHING that has player vs monster combat is very roguelike...

[neongrey]

I wouldn't say moving monsters is one of the defining features of the roguelike genre, though. I realize the definition is pretty fluid but most of it boils down to the extremely random element; the fact that no matter how many times you play, you'll never get exactly the same game each time.

[Azimuth]

No.

The real definition of any roguelike is: YOU'RE ****ED, LOL.

[dislekcia]

I wouldn't say moving monsters is one of the defining features of the roguelike genre, though. I realize the definition is pretty fluid but most of it boils down to the extremely random element; the fact that no matter how many times you play, you'll never get exactly the same game each time.

I'd agree with this, the random generation of play experiences and the huge palette of events that can happen are the primary features of a rogue-like for me... I'd even go so far as to call S.A.I.S. a rogue-like game.