Desktop Dungeons

[Nandrew]

Guys, if the essays are tl;dr right now, please ignore them. I'm getting quite excitable and stuff, that's all. :P

[BlackShipsFillt]

Essays are good! I think everyone here wants to learn from your experiences.

BTW. About giving the player ultimate power. I don't know if Spore is a good example, but I reckon it's a game that allowed for too much customization and as a result no real power, the modifications were watered down so much as to be irrelevant... On the other hand Scribblenauts was quite successful (even if the controls were hideous), although maybe less successful than everyone expected...

My point is that although I think you're going the exact right route on Desktop Dungeon... ie more flavourful characters and more varied gameplay... Extending the player's control over the game can lead to interesting results if the player's control is integrated into the gameplay. (I'm working on a concept that attempts to do this, there's a chance it may fail as a game, but it will definitely be an interesting experience)

[Aequitas]

I had an idea while talking to Dis over dinner.

Altars.

Imagine finding a room in the dungeon that says 'the altar demands xxx as sacrifice' and xxx could range from half you current health, to half your max health, to even a level!

You click the altar, loose the xxx and gain something of equal or greater value! Like maybe 5 extra max mana and full mana, or a 40% damage bonus, or first strike for the rest of the dungeon!
they don't need to be there every game, but it would be neat to find from time to time.

[BlackShipsFillt]

This may be one of those instances where it's best not to give the player what he/she wants, but, as a player what I really wanted was some more dungeons... I wanted to take my level 9 character and wipe out another bunch of more powerful monsters in a new dungeon with deadlier spells...

I suppose it's a testament to the addictiveness of the game, but an impulse best not followed up on...

Here is a cool idea... How about Super Contra bosses? A boss that takes up several tiles, head, tentacles, organs etc, each having their own weaknesses and having to be killed in the correct order... though I suggest this for just about every game, it's my fondest childhood memory.

[Fengol]

Actually, that's not a bad idea. When you kill the boss a portal opens up to another random dungeon into which you can take your current character

[BlackShipsFillt]

Trouble is it would start to sprawl over the 10 minute gameplay mark... And raises problems like : When does the game end, and, can you just keep on playing and growing more powerful, and if you enter another arena as a more powerful hero against more powerful monsters then aren't you just leveling up on the spot. (like the way all Oblivion enemies get stronger with you making any progress on your stats sheet meaningless in terms of gameplay)

It's only worth entering a new dungeon if there is new content that would not fit into the one dungeon format. Like the way Spelunky has 4 types of caves... And like Spelunky it is only worth it if there is a definite end, otherwise it becomes a never-ending time-sink roleplaying game and Nandrew loses the casual audience.

I quite like the Spelunky comparison here because Nandrew attached a readme file to DD that was awfully similar to Derek Yu's Spelunky readme (ie full of "this game is rather difficult" warnings)... but actually DD is much easier... In it's current form I can beat it about one in four times, whereas Spelunky took me 288 deaths to win... (I think DD could be a bit harder personally)

Another thing, if there were multiple Dungeons, then there would be more investment on the players part, and this would make dungeons that are actually impossible really ****. At the moment this seems to happen every six or seven games and isn't really a big problem because it's usually noticeable right at the start, but noone wants to have their progress erased due to arriving at an impossible level.

[Nandrew]

Well reasoned, actually. Extra leveling is definitely another idea which sounds cool, but it's one which I'd prefer not to follow up on, partially for personal reasons.

Allowing players to develop characters beyond the 10-minute mark could perhaps work if a solid attempt was made, but it interferes with the game's core ethos. The sole reason for developing this was so that I could play for it ten minutes between tasks knowing that no matter what I did, my hero lived, fought and died in those few minutes. It defines the attitude of the game.

THAT SAID, however, I am looking at multi-session persistence. I've been batting some ideas back and forth with people over Gtalk and hopefully within the next version or so I'll have established a persistent game currency of sorts that can be collected and stored over multiple games. I've also got a few ideas about the sort of things that can be bought with this currency.

Also, lol, Super Contra boss. Mebbeh. Nobody can deny that Contra *did* have some rad bosses.

Altars.

Whee! I'm already looking at what sort of pantheon could work well with those. :)

(I think DD could be a bit harder personally)

I'm always looking for an excuse to crank it up, so watch out! :P But the next version is going to come with quite a few changes anyway, so we'll see how the difficulty pans out then.

[Nandrew]

Apologies for the quietnessitude this past week: between travel, illness and sitting in Grahamstown with a not-yet-sorted-out Internet line, I've found it rather difficult to do, well, ANYTHING on the Internet.

I've actually got a yummy new version of the game readied, I'm just having massive pains with Box.net / uploading / stuff due to the really slow connection, and I think I'd rather wait until I have a more stable line. Looking at some time around Wednesday, hopefully.

[DukeOFprunes]

So when's this mythical new version coming out? ^____^

[Nandrew]

Currently scheduled for some time next week. My Internet is still crying tears of blood, and I'm only going online for the absolute most necessary work and stuff. Uploading files is a near impossibility.

To give you guys an idea of what's actually been thrown in so far:

- completely revamped class system (as described above)
- sounds from Herman Tulleken! (well, in progress, but they're as good as in I reckon)
- shops and gold system (I coded this in rather clumsily, so I'm still hacking out a bunch of problems)
- more enemies
- an attempt at dungeon set pieces (again, I'm noobing a little on this, but it should be sorted with a little more work)
- A FULL PANTHEON OF GODS (DUM DUM DUMMM)

I'm also making a bunch of less spectacular tweaks. In particular, I'm trying to figure out how to generate fewer "impossible" dungeons (though I don't think it's a terrible problem at this stage, just something I'd like to iron out if it doesn't affect the game negatively).

Looking forward to posting it, I think there's a lot of exciting stuff going in. And at the same time I'll be able to go around to all the other threads and download the latest versions of other people's games: I've got a long list of "unread" threads that I'm keen to attend to. :D

[BlackShipsFillt]

Sweeet! looking forward to it!

[dislekcia]

The best part is that I get to play the new version while Nandrew uploads it! Mwahahahaha.

[Miktar]

WHERE IS THE NEW VERSION!

Someone lied to me. ;..;

[Fengol]

There actually is no excuse. I know he was visiting Aeq and D last night so there should have been an upload!

[dislekcia]

OMFG!

I just had the most epic game... Second time playing with the new Rogue (unlocked when you kill a boss with the thief) and I'm loving the character, total glass cannon. Struck it super-lucky and bought a 10% physical resist charm and then a +10 health amulet from two different shops at level 1. Rogues only gain 5 health per level, so the extra health is awesome. Made my way around the dungeon sniping things I could take on my own until I found fireball. This meant I could take on much higher level monsters with a double-fireball, ride the first attack and rely on first strike to finish them while I had no health. Well, unless they were poison monsters, those you might have to take through attrition. Eventually the game came down to me not having enough health by 1 to survive a single hit from the boss. The only way to get more health would be to level, but I'd explored nearly everything. Ended up needing to kill a lvl 9 goblin (first strike, so they always hit) that would kill me in 1 shot. Unloaded all my mana potions as fireballs, realised that I was 1 potion short of killing it that way. Had to take a gamble and rely on the 20% chance to dodge that Rogues have. There was a bit of praying. Click. Take damage, ****. SURVIVE? Nandrew and I screamed in joy, we'd both forgot about the 10% damage resist from earlier! 7 xp needed to level, worshipped at an altar to exchange 5 of my max mana for 10 xp. Boom, level 9 with full health and mana again. Killed the final boss in 3 hits and 4 potions. Was doing over 100 damage at the end with bysseps ;)

Unlocked the Assassin and my dungeons now have bandits in them. I ****ing love this game.

[DukeOFprunes]

Altars? Shops? Is this the same game?

[Fengol]

dislekcia, you do realise that comment makes you out to be like a tool; who boasts about how great his game is but won't share a link or post a screenshot? And it's not even your game!

[dislekcia]

Altars? Shops? Is this the same game?

There's a LOT that's been added. Same gameplay, new elements of epic winnage!

dislekcia, you do realise that comment makes you out to be like a tool; who boasts about how great his game is but won't share a link or post a screenshot? And it's not even your game!

Hey, I'm testing here. :P

[Nandrew]

AND AWAAAAY WE GO!

DESKTOP DUNGEONS VERSION 0.04 IS NOW LIVE AND STUFF! (check beginning of thread)

- MASTER POWERFUL NEW CLASSES WITH THEIR OWN SPECIAL TACTICS AND EFFECTS!
- UNLOCK SHOPS, ITEMS, ENEMIES AND SPECIAL GLYPHS!
- APPEASE A PANTHEON OF TEN DIFFERENT GODS!
- POST YOUR RESULTS ONLINE FOR RANKED DUNGEON RUNS!

... aaaaand a bunch of other stuff. Pfeh, marketing-speak is overrated. :P Enjoy the new version guys, I really hope y'all like the whack of changes and additions!

AND REMEMBER: There's a startling number of tricks and hacks that can be employed to help adventurers get the edge on their opponents. Desktop Dungeons is a very difficult game (especially when you finally unlock Ranked mode), so if you think of a really cool dungeon crawling tip, or want to write a guide to playing with your favourite character, post it here and help your fellow players. You could stand to learn a lot from it, too. ;)

Peace, sunshine and goblin heads!

[DukeOFprunes]

Not tried the new one yet but I am loving it... IN THE FUTURE

[EDIT] I pimped this thing everywhere that allowed me to.