Desktop Dungeons

[BlackShipsFillt]

I didn't quite follow this part, sorry. What do you mean by granularity?

The term "granularity" in game design is used slightly differently depending on who you talk to. But my understanding of the way Disleksia is using it is that the granularity of the game is the frequency of meaningful choices or events that directly affect the player or move the narrative forward. Desktop Dungeons can be said to have an unusually high granularity because even exploring a single tile can be an important choice.

In certain games a lot of time is spent between decisions or player affecting events, like watching cutscenes in Final Fantasy or hacking through an easy bunch of zombies in Diablo. These games then can be said to have lower granularity.

(unless I am mistaken)

[Catwalk]

And there we go, blocked in by level 4 monsters in my third game as a Warlord :) Couldn't rise above level 2, and didn't have any way to take down either of the level 4 Warlocks with the resources at my disposal.

Your definition of granularity makes sense, and I suppose I agree. It appeals to me when a game has a high level of granularity. Another way to see it is that the game has an interface that is quick to use and relatively few no-brainer decisions. I wonder if too much of a good thing can be bad, though. I still think I'd rather enjoy automatic exploration and the food + rest system, combined with monsters blocking your paths more effectively. Moreover, the food + rest system might even lead to a slightly easier learning curve for new players, it's easier to grasp intuitively than the exploration regeneration system. But I'll concede the point, I know it won't be changed :)

[BlackShipsFillt]

Yes, but there will almost certainly be other games like Desktop Dungeons in the future, and no doubt some of those will tweak the explore/regeneration mechanic. (and there is a reasonable chance the future creators may even read your suggestions on this forum)

[Catwalk]

After a few enjoyable runs, I've found a new challenge to have fun with: See how many Gauntlet runs I can make in a row with a Human Transmuter. No challenge dungeons have been completed (other than the mandatory Snake Pit once), so I have few items to rely on. Human Transmuter is arguably the strongest and most reliable combo, and it's all but guaranteed that you'll be able to find a useful god in time. Earthmother/Binlor are both amazing, Pactmaker/Jehora/Dracul are quite decent and Tiki/Guardian will do in a pinch. That leaves just Taurog and Mystera as useless. Due to the Transmuter's excellent exploration capabilities and not really needing to save tiles for regeneration it's easy to dig up one of these gods before killing monsters.

This diminishes the luck aspect considerably, and success is largely dependent on skill. Furthermore, gold becomes an interesting commodity now since I won't be able to restock between runs. Few items are available, but they're quite useful (Mana pendant and sword in particular, health pendant early on and potions whenever I'm short of resources for a boss kill). I'd love to be able to play in a similar way with more classes, I'm having fun but it gets boring to be restricted to a single class. Plus vampire, I suppose.

Attempting level 3 with Jehora now, almost painted myself into a corner on level 2 as I didn't realize I was facing the boss wraith until after I'd converted my fireball. Early levelling is starting to become difficult, +15% is a considerable handicap.

EDIT: Beat level 3 handily, but it's starting to become difficult. I think I'll clear the challenge dungeons for item bonuses, they're pretty balanced without unlimited funds and give many more options to consider.

[breaker]

I have a couple small questions for Dis.

One, in previous versions, you could transfer saves across versions and save your unlocks. I know this will probably be impossible or not particularly useful for the full/beta release, but will there be advantages to coming in to the new game with a fully unlocked/ campaign completed freeware save other than simple experience? Also, will the campaign or campaign like challenges be present in the beta? If so, will they retain their difficulty?

Two, I'm liking the conversation going on between Catwalk and BSF. I don't think I'm qualified to keep up with them, but I have to say I disagree with a handful of Catwalk's suggestions simply because this game is special because of two things. 1, the game's regen mechanic, for the majority of the classes/races, this should not be changed under any circumstances.

2, anything that ties this game to it's roguelike routes. This includes the randomness and chance for an occasional impossible death. While both of these probably need to be toned down compared to freeware, if I'm looking for something I can always win by skill alone... I wouldn't be playing a roguelike anything.

[dislekcia]

One, in previous versions, you could transfer saves across versions and save your unlocks. I know this will probably be impossible or not particularly useful for the full/beta release, but will there be advantages to coming in to the new game with a fully unlocked/ campaign completed freeware save other than simple experience? Also, will the campaign or campaign like challenges be present in the beta? If so, will they retain their difficulty?

We can't carry over saves directly because of the way the progression has changed, but we do want to reward people who have played the freeware a ton. I'd like to do something that would allow you to upload your save file and the game then gives you a one-time reward on your account, but that probably won't be working in the beta until we've ironed out the gameplay balance issues we totally expect to crop up :)

Yes, there will be campaigns and campaign-like elements in the full. We've really expanded on dungeons and the way players interact with dungeons: You can choose quests now! Campaigns will make a return, hopefully we'll be able to have quite a few of varying levels of difficulty.

Two, I'm liking the conversation going on between Catwalk and BSF. I don't think I'm qualified to keep up with them, but I have to say I disagree with a handful of Catwalk's suggestions simply because this game is special because of two things. 1, the game's regen mechanic, for the majority of the classes/races, this should not be changed under any circumstances.

2, anything that ties this game to it's roguelike routes. This includes the randomness and chance for an occasional impossible death. While both of these probably need to be toned down compared to freeware, if I'm looking for something I can always win by skill alone... I wouldn't be playing a roguelike anything.

Yeah, permadeath and the potential to just die horribly is a part of the game, the trick is to try and make it feel a little less unfair on the player. We also do want to make it possible to reward skill, so the choice to back out of a dungeon vs simply dying is a valid one now, you don't get your gold/items if you die. And no, we're not changing the regen, no matter how glibly people argue ;)

[Catwalk]

Sounds really good about the new dungeon concepts, especially if you're able to stick with the core coffee break concept while allowing for just a little more continuity between games. On the other hand, it sounds like you'll still be able to grind for cash on unsuccesful runs. Is this really the case? If so, is there any mechanic in place to discourage players from grinding? Moreoever, is there any real point in only letting stuff be kept if you quit rather than dying? There is never any need for dying, it happens by accident or simply when you feel like going out harakiri style. Either you can beat the boss or you can't. Distinguishing between dying and quitting unsuccesfully only makes a difference for low level players who don't understand the combat system (including the big bold DEATH hint on the combat screen). Does that reward skill in a meaningful way?

breaker, I agree that the regeneration mechanic is one thing that sets DD apart in a positive manner. Having a finite amount of resources to manage contributes greatly to the game's appeal. I don't think my suggestion breaks with that, merely improves on the concept in a more intuitive and less luck-based manner. Let me know if you all want me to drop the point, I know it won't change ;)

As for random and unpreventable death, I actually think this is the main distinguishing factor of DD. DD strays very far from many RL dogma, and in doing so it becomes more of a puzzle game. That's part of the game's description, and it lets it attract a whole new audience for many reasons. It's definitely one of the things that endears DD to me. What other sources of random an unpreventable death other than being boxed in early on are there? Some maps will be tougher than others (based on layout, character and dungeon features) but even in the toughest ones it's usually possible to wrest a win from it if you optimize your resources really well. Isn't that how it should be?

[dislekcia]

Sounds really good about the new dungeon concepts, especially if you're able to stick with the core coffee break concept while allowing for just a little more continuity between games. On the other hand, it sounds like you'll still be able to grind for cash on unsuccesful runs. Is this really the case? If so, is there any mechanic in place to discourage players from grinding? Moreoever, is there any real point in only letting stuff be kept if you quit rather than dying? There is never any need for dying, it happens by accident or simply when you feel like going out harakiri style. Either you can beat the boss or you can't. Distinguishing between dying and quitting unsuccesfully only makes a difference for low level players who don't understand the combat system (including the big bold DEATH hint on the combat screen). Does that reward skill in a meaningful way?

The major anti-grind elements are monster trophies. Kill a boss and you get a trophy that sells for a large amount compared to your usual gold haul from a dungeon. This means that yes, you could just enter a dungeon, pick up as many potions and gold as possible and run away, but you'd have to do it a ton to equal just one successful boss kill. There are other balancing factors involved as well: There's a trophy economy, so constantly killing the same boss becomes less lucrative quite quickly and players are encouraged to try harder dungeons or even just ones with boss types they haven't killed in a while.

Choosing to press on or back out is an important choice in several sub-dungeons now too: It's possible for players to become trapped in mini-quest areas if they're too reckless. Sometimes deciding to take on a quest is a really tricky decision. Generally though, the gold picked up during runs is more useful for buying items from shops, it's the items themselves that will make players back out of dungeons earlier. Pick up a really neat item and you know that if you die with it, you're never going to get it into a locker ;)

[Catwalk]

I'm still not keen on getting anything from an unsuccesful run, but as long as the amount is miniscule I suppose it's a lesser issue. Do you actively want to encourage players to go pick up an item and leave, though? That seems to be quite lucrative with no downside to it.

Will dying function differently in Unity, or will it still be "voluntary"? In the sense that you only die if you misclick or forget to check the combat screen before making an attack. If so, I don't see any real difference between dying and retiring.

From what I can make out of your description of sub dungeons, they're an interesting challenge where you run the risk of being unable to complete the dungeon in order to get some extra loot. This sounds good by itself, but doesn't address the issue of dying vs retiring. Apologies if I seem overly critical, I'm really looking forward to Unity :)

[Drew]

ever consider putting DD on facebook? Itd be awesome to compare scores with your friends.

[dislekcia]

ever consider putting DD on facebook? Itd be awesome to compare scores with your friends.

There's been thinking around a Facebook version. No real idea exactly how that would work though.

[Zoop]

I have to admit, I don't like the angle you guys are taking with the way you're selling this. :/ Specifically, I don't like this in the special edition:

Additional Kingdom building, extra challenge quests and a [/b]unique character class.[/b]

Only the bolded parts, btw, I have no problem with the SE having a few extra quests. That's to be expected from any SE. However, buying an SE and receiving such big advantages that affects gameplay that much, that just screams that the versions have been named incorrectly in my books. With such game altering stuff not being present in the normal version, I'd have called it the 'Elcheapo' version, and the SE the normal version. Especially seeing as the SE is double the price right now.

I don't mean to knock you guys either, I just want you to see it from my point of view. I just don't see any lure in buying the normal edition, and seeing as I can't really afford the SE, I'm not about to buy it anytime soon either, because I'm going to feel slightly ripped off. In a SE, I expect to see maybe an extra weapon or two, an extra dungeon and perhaps a quest or two as well, but definitely not a fully fledged class and 'additional kingdom building'. If I had to buy Dungeon Siege 3, and they told me that the Special addition has another class, I'm certainly not going to be in any mood to buy the normal edition, and if I can't afford the SE, I'm going to pass it by.

[FuzzYspo0N]

I think i read it as "an additional kingdom building" , not " additional building of your kingdom" . its more content - not more gameplay.

you may want to read the forums over on the QCF site here for more info and discussions about this : http://www.qcfdesign.com/forum/viewt...p?f=3&t=16#p19

[dislekcia]

I have to admit, I don't like the angle you guys are taking with the way you're selling this. :/ Specifically, I don't like this in the special edition:

Only the bolded parts, btw, I have no problem with the SE having a few extra quests. That's to be expected from any SE. However, buying an SE and receiving such big advantages that affects gameplay that much, that just screams that the versions have been named incorrectly in my books. With such game altering stuff not being present in the normal version, I'd have called it the 'Elcheapo' version, and the SE the normal version. Especially seeing as the SE is double the price right now.

I don't mean to knock you guys either, I just want you to see it from my point of view. I just don't see any lure in buying the normal edition, and seeing as I can't really afford the SE, I'm not about to buy it anytime soon either, because I'm going to feel slightly ripped off. In a SE, I expect to see maybe an extra weapon or two, an extra dungeon and perhaps a quest or two as well, but definitely not a fully fledged class and 'additional kingdom building'. If I had to buy Dungeon Siege 3, and they told me that the Special addition has another class, I'm certainly not going to be in any mood to buy the normal edition, and if I can't afford the SE, I'm going to pass it by.

This is what happens when we don't explain the scope of the game properly: The special edition has 1 extra building that houses 1 extra class with a funny twist. The class is completely irrelevant in the greater scheme of things, there's no quest progression tied to it and no amazing unlocks. We have 19 classes so far that we've spent huge amounts of time balancing and polishing, if you really feel that one more joke class is crippling, then I guess we've communicated it poorly. What advantages do you see that could be missed out on? If I can understand that, then I can probably fix the issue :)

Natural Selection 2 had a Special Edition pre order for double the cost solely as a way of supporting the developers: The reward to players was black armor so that other players could tell you'd "donated". We're making SE Kingdoms look slightly different in the same way, to say thanks for being awesome and helping us out.

How would you handle your Dungeon Siege example if SE players got a unique NPC that told jokes instead? ;)

[Zoop]

Ah okay. No, I just thought that it would be pointless to buy the normal edition if the SE aded something that made a significant change to gameplay. If it's more of a joke class thing, then I've got no further qualms about it. :P

Also, congratulations on getting the site up and running! Have to say, I haven't been following the project very much, but now that I've read what you've accomplished so far, I'm astounded I kept myself in the dark so long. You guys might be tired of hearing it from other people, but this project is one giant milestone for the SA game development community. It really makes me proud to see people on international forums going on about how much fun the game is. :D

I won't be buying the game soon, though, as I'm going to hold out for the Steam release, but I'm guessing that won't happen until the final version releases.

[SC(+)PE]

Exclusive edition sold out D:

Oh well. Bought me a special edition :D yay for having a paypal account.

[Chevron]

When are you guys getting on Steam?

[dislekcia]

When are you guys getting on Steam?

Not 100% sure yet, just made contact with someone from Valve at E3. Will be following that up as soon as I can think again.

[Drew]

Highscores arent working :/

[dislekcia]

Highscores arent working :/

Yeah, I think the GMH system that we were using is having problems... Don't worry, we'll have our own high score system for the full version :)

Beta soon!