"Indie" WTF does that mean?

[LexAquillia]

- Legal Drafter: Take simple agreements and make them as complex as possible. Get bonus's for creating LATIN COMBOS by stringing multiple latin words together. Sue client when they refuse to pay because they can't understand what you've written.

[Stalker 103]

UnderWare Developer Simulator Deluxe: Play as an Aspiring UnderWare developer as he struggles to create games worthy of impressing the Fussy King of Gamedonia. Now includes the following new features: Late Night Coding Sessions; Eviction; Binge Drinking and Server Crashes

Forum Troll: Play as a recently awakened Troll on a quest to annoy and alienate as many people as Troll-anely possible using nothing but words, links and off topic arguments

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[dislekcia]

...

I think.

I think I'm about to win this thread...

Anglo Boer War Simulator.

[Chevron]

...

I think.

I think I'm about to win this thread...

Anglo Boer War Simulator.

It could even be an RTS. 3 sides, just like StarCraft.

[Stalker 103]

3 Sides? Weren't there only two, the Boers and the British? Or was there a third side?

[BlackShipsFillt]

Cyborgs?

[Stalker 103]

No I've got it! The third side will be.........Nazis from the future. Hellbent on wiping out our tradition of making Boerewors and out for Winston Churchhills blood (He fought for the Brits during the Boer War)

[BlackShipsFillt]

Undies Games!

Periscope Extreme! Use your iPad's camera to see from underwater.

Quicktime Apocalypse. Uses the accelerometer to measure your responses in G's. Use maximum force for maximum effect!

[LexAquillia]

Meh not really on topic, but I can't start a new thread yet since I don't have the required posts :/

Any who, Game Devs, you can now get 150% tax break for RnD costs.

Full analysis is here: http://www.michalsons.co.za/tax-brea...elopers/10169/

Short version:

You can deduct your expenses for licences, staff salaries for developing new games or "updating" existing games.

:)

Maybe an Admin can move this to it's own thread?

[BlackShipsFillt]

WWWWWHat!

Do we get paid now for RnD? (Busy reading the article now, this sounds really exciting)

Edit: Having read it now it seems to me that any prototyping is tax deductible as well as any improvement to the functionality of the game?

This mean then that game jams are tax deductible (which is sweet!)... and that iterative development (where you typically create first and then improve upon repeatedly) benefits far more tax wise?

Edit: I think I gather now that the updating part only applies to existing products. Unless I'm confused. Do improvements to a game that is still in development constitute "developing or significantly improving any invention, design, [or]computer program"?

[Zoop]

Very lttp, but here goes:

I agree with Azimuth. Indie stems from 'independant', right? Hence things like 'Independant Games Festival', etc.

From that one would deduce that someone is an indie developer when he creates a game without any financial backing from a publisher and gets to make all the calls concerning decisions regarding his/her/their game. Why differentiate between people who meet that criteria simply because one person/group does it to place food on their table, and the other does it in his/her/their spare time?

If someone makes an indie movie, and does it in his spare time after work, then goes on to sell the movie online and make a bunch of cash, he's an indie movie producer. You can't say 'no he not indie coz he not doing it to buy food lolor'.

Also, there's a big difference between someone who develops with the intent to sell (Nicholas) and someone who literally messes around in the afternoons because it's his hobby. Nicholas is an indie developer. Telling him he's not simply because other people haven't labelled him one is some pretty wack logic right there. He makes and funds games himself, with the intent of selling them. That's an indie developer. Telling him otherwise is elitist.

Saying someone isn't an indie because he doesn't do it for a living. That's elitist.

The bigger question? Why make a distinction at all? What does it matter anyway? The entire reason for making a distinction in the first place reeks of elitism.

"I'm not looking down on you, but you're not indie because I don't think people who don't make games for a living can be considered indies, so there!"

[LexAquillia]

WWWWWHat!

Do we get paid now for RnD? (Busy reading the article now, this sounds really exciting)

Edit: Having read it now it seems to me that any prototyping is tax deductible as well as any improvement to the functionality of the game?

Short answer yes. You know what's also cool ? Legal Costs are also deductable, and if your a Pty at 150%, thats right, paying a lawyer to do your EULA's and stuff can actually earn you money from the tax man :D

This mean then that game jams are tax deductible (which is sweet!)... and that iterative development (where you typically create first and then improve upon repeatedly) benefits far more tax wise?

Game Jams would only be deductable if you can show that the end product resulted in an actual income (or you at least trying to get an income), you can do research for researches sake unfortunately and get it as a tax deduction.

Edit: I think I gather now that the updating part only applies to existing products. Unless I'm confused. Do improvements to a game that is still in development constitute "developing or significantly improving any invention, design, [or]computer program"?

Correct needs to be updates for existing released games, so DLC is tax deductable, as are patches etc. Developments on currently in development games will still be covered by the "creation of new computer programs" though...

I'd like to chime in on the Indie debate (just to keep it relevant) and Indie Developer is one who can get tax deductions for making his games ;)

[BlackShipsFillt]

The bigger question? Why make a distinction at all? What does it matter anyway? The entire reason for making a distinction in the first place reeks of elitism.

"I'm not looking down on you, but you're not indie because I don't think people who don't make games for a living can be considered indies, so there!"

Well, not that I particularly care about the term "Indie" myself, but you seemed to have ignored Dislekcia's argument and ascribed to him motives other than what he stated were his motives.

Being independent of publishers doesn't really apply if you are making games without the intention to sell them. I mean... sure you're independent of publishers, but that doesn't accurately describe what you are doing. A lot of other terms would better describe your game development status. "Indie" only had real meaning for anyone when in order to successfully release a game a studio required publishers, the internet changed that.

I mean, sticking Gas Powered Games (who made Supreme Commander) and a programming student who makes Sudoku puzzles for his parents in the same category makes the category itself kind of meaningless.

And as Dislekcia said, he's trying to create a more useful term to describe a particular portion of of the game development community as the term "Indie" no longer carries any useful meaning. Suggesting that he means otherwise is kind of rude.

Here's another point: What does Indie Rock mean to you? (If you aren't familiar with the movement it is a kind of less testosterone-fuled alt-rock that often incorporates elements of folk and electronica).

The point being "Indie" now means a particular style music industry rather than a business model. There is a good chance that that is exactly what is going to become of the term "Indie" in games. In fact, if you have a look at the IGF, this may have already happened.

That said, "Indie" as a style absolutely excludes Nicholas Nel, his style is most definitely budget-starved-AAA.

[BlackShipsFillt]

I'd like to chime in on the Indie debate (just to keep it relevant) and Indie Developer is one who can get tax deductions for making his games ;)

I'm liking indies more and more. Also I really really love this idea that I can hire lawyers to earn me money (once I've asked the Minister of Science and technology nicely)... I'm totally going to start picking fights in the cinema! :P

[dislekcia]

The bigger question? Why make a distinction at all? What does it matter anyway? The entire reason for making a distinction in the first place reeks of elitism.

"I'm not looking down on you, but you're not indie because I don't think people who don't make games for a living can be considered indies, so there!"

It's a distinction I've come across a lot at events like the IGF/GDC, E3 and IndieCade. This is not something I pulled out of a hat, it's something that I've realised: There's a growing community of people who make games to earn a self-sustaining living that don't identify with hobbyist game developers.

The distinction is useful to me for a whole host of reasons: I immediately know what I should and shouldn't talk about in terms of evaluating someone's game - to put that in perspective, I say completely different things to Fuzzy or BlackShips when I play their games than I do to a forumite that is simply learning their trade; I know what level of time and effort someone is likely to be putting into their games at the moment; I know more about what they can teach me, and yes, both hobbyists and non-hobbyists have boatloads to teach me, no matter how stupidly elitist you might think I am.

As a definition, I find it useful to focus on the self-sustainability of game development. A spare-time-only developer depends on another job/family/income/other resources in many ways in order to keep doing their development, they're not in a position to sustain their development with their development. Yes, you could argue that nobody starts in that position, but I've never claimed otherwise, only that it's a useful thing to know up front when I meet new people.

The entire point that the distinction is not visible, let alone valuable, to you pretty much emphasises my point... None of the hobbyist developers I've met at any of the US events I've been to felt denigrated or condescended to by the "hobbyist" moniker that they self-identified as, no matter what their final ambitions were. They were simply stating the truth of their current situations - "indie" as a label that only talks about whether someone has a publishing agreement or not is useless and people are treating that definition as such, hence the emergence of a different pattern.

Call me whatever you want, that doesn't change what I've observed happening, nor the utility I get from it.