E-Tolling Project

[charly]

I can't afford driving these new toll roads once it commences next month. I'm having to find an alternate solution - either driving a crap, busy road and spending more time on said road or using the Gautrain (which is pretty unreliable with the bus driver strikes and all that). In short - I'm screwed. Badly. I truly hope for this to be true, although I can't see how the public and the country will digest a scandal like this. It's disgusting, and exactly what made Apartheid such a sick regime in the first place. The poor people are screwed over more than they are in the first place and the rich only reap more and more rewards. Way to move forward.

There is a cap of something like R550

[MonGooS]

I am a little confused by this. I don't really know what the e-tags are, but so far as I can find, its basically just a method of paying the toll charge without stopping. Why is this so bad? Or do I have it wrong? If you are going to stop and pay R23 for the toll gate or drive through it and have R23 charged on your CC, what exactly is the fuss about?

Also, how are they going to charge you R1.75/km? If you don't have an e-tag how are they going to track your cars distance travelled?

Sorry if I am asking stupid questions, I just don't understand this whole e-tag thing (living out in the middle of nowhere and all).

[Cleric]

Because its on the major routes that people travel twice a day every workday of their lives. Because it's another unfair tax on Gauteng citizens, whose taxes funded the majority of the roads in the country already. Because it's going to create a localised inflation spike on literally EVERYTHING. Because around 20c in the rand only make it through to paying down the road cost because of the exorbitant charges on implementing e-tolls.

And because we are powerless to the whims of an incompetent government.

[nukehead]

In a nutshell, MonGooS, they did massive additions to the highways in Jozi. They then introduced a new automatic tolling system for the 'new' roads, roads that have been there the whole time. They then set the exorbitant toll price (of 68c a kilometre or something) when the system was first being introduced. The public backlash was immense.

It basically has been a saga since then. Mass protests ensued etc. When people protested the government ignored all protest and said it is happening whether you like it or not.

The last I heard was that they used the retirement funds of government employees to illegally fund this project and that is why they are so desperate to implement the system.

So it is not so much about the system in place but rather how it is being run. In a rather underhanded manner.Oh, and this is a very basic gist of an event that has been around three or four years in the making.

[Wesley]

I am a little confused by this. I don't really know what the e-tags are, but so far as I can find, its basically just a method of paying the toll charge without stopping. Why is this so bad? Or do I have it wrong? If you are going to stop and pay R23 for the toll gate or drive through it and have R23 charged on your CC, what exactly is the fuss about?

Also, how are they going to charge you R1.75/km? If you don't have an e-tag how are they going to track your cars distance travelled?

Sorry if I am asking stupid questions, I just don't understand this whole e-tag thing (living out in the middle of nowhere and all).

The whole debate against it is because when you sign up for the service its directly linked to your bank account, not your credit card. You think its hard getting money back from a company like Vodacom? Its next to impossible to get money back from the government once they've taken it out your account. Its legalised fraud and theft, at least that's how I see it anyway.

As for the R1.75 charge, the toll system uses cameras and license plate recognition systems to track your car. If they don't see an e-Tag, they put it onto a bill for your license. If you are ever stopped at a roadblock and have your license checked, they'll demand you pay the fees or be arrested. If you accumulate too many fees, they can summon you to court for outstanding fines and even blacklist you.

The kind of power the government is creating for itself with this toll system is almost dictatorian. In fact its close to the kind of hold the Federal Reserve Bank has on America, and once its implemented and all the legal loopholes are filled, there's no turning back unless the current government is replaced by the DA.

[x-scon]

Also, these aren't the regular toll gates that you are thinking of. They added these automated systems at regular intervals on the major roads/highways between the cities. Basically it is a scaffold-like construction over the highways that register when you pass under them. It works by eTag and by camera. You can't pay this toll the normal toll gates, this is a separate toll. If you pass through a normal toll gate you will pay that on top of the new toll.



The new toll can be paid by using the new eTag that will be linked to your bank account (30c/km) or you will be sent a bill in the mail(R1.75/km) if you didn't register an eTag.

I for one don't think it is a good idea to give your bank account details to these guys. It will be so easy to make mistakes, and who knows how long it will take to be refunded for incorrect billings. I'm not even sure how easy it would be to regulate your bills to see if they did it correctly.

So far about 300 000 people have registered eTags which is roughly 10% of the vehicles in Gauteng. The hopes that we have at the moment is that in the first month the traffic department will have to send out so many bills to the unregistered people that it will take so much time and work that it will end up costing them more money than they will be earning. We can only hope that the different groups/companies that are standing up against this will be somewhat successful.

I hope my information is correct. It's based mostly on articles posted by MyBB.

EDIT: What Wesley said :P

[Lysis]

Let's not forget that on top of all this the toll check points are also going to be used as average-speed traps.

[MonGooS]

Thanks for clearing that up guys. Sounds like one giant ball-ache. Guess as of 30 April I will be avoiding any roads around that area, just in case.

[Kharrak]

So far about 300 000 people have registered eTags which is roughly 10% of the vehicles in Gauteng.

To clarify, one tag can represent an entire family - so it's not accurate to say that it's 300,000 cards in itself.

[Wesley]

Let's not forget that on top of all this the toll check points are also going to be used as average-speed traps.

Ooh, yeah, this one as well. No more fast driving for Gareth Cliff!

To clarify, one tag can represent an entire family - so it's not accurate to say that it's 300,000 cards in itself.

True, but then again it could also represent a car club. Car clubs will also be hit because each driver of the car has to have the e-Tag associated with his bank account and they all get billed separately, increasing the cost of car clubs. The mere fact that taxis won't get billed is incredibly short-sighted. If the Traffic Department initiated the toll idea to clear out our roads, they should fix the public transportation system before that gets done. Gautrain is incredibly convenient for peeps in Pretoria, but is still in infancy and doesn't allow the majority of users access to areas even a few blocks away from where they work.

As for those guys who wonder how quickly account errors will be rectified? Ask the poor saps in and around Joburg about how the local municipalities ****ed up their accounts and ask them to pay up to R100,000 for errors in their system. Or a business owner that I am related to that got billed R325,000 in one month for electricity usage, even though he runs an internet cafe.

I know for a FACT that the toll system will collapse in on itself within weeks due to inefficiency, but the fat cats behind this one will simply siphon money from other areas and departments until this thing starts making them money.

[Zoop]

And if everybody refuses to pay? What then. If the road users don't pay a cent, this thing will collapse within the first week.

[KalMaverick]

And if everybody refuses to pay? What then. If the road users don't pay a cent, this thing will collapse within the first week.

I don't want to be a chicken but I do not want to be the one they make an example of.

I saw a post on mybb that pretty much summed it up.

We have a lot of keyboard heroes here who say they are not going to pay.

Once out in the real world however where they are not anonymous, they will pay - just like the rest of us sheep.

I can just count my lucky stars I do not ride those streets.

[Zoop]

And that's the problem. For something like this to work, everyone would have to participate. I hardly think they'd prosecute 300 000 people. It's probably the most effective way for the country to show that it's fed-up with the ANC's bull****.

Sadly, I would be scared to do it too, unless I'm dead sure enough people are doing it so that the ANC wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

[nukehead]

Unfortunately, if past experience is anything to go by (different circumstances and all that), the police will threaten you with violence should you refuse to pay. Unless you bribe them, of course.

It really is quite a ****ed up ecosystem in Jozi. The Metro police, when I was there a couple weeks ago, had just released a statement to the press which basically said that they are not there to enforce and encourage safety measures, they are there to collect money. It would be laughable if it just wasn't so UNfunny.

[Zoop]

Sometimes I get the feeling us guys here in Cape Town don't know how good we've really got it.

[Wesley]

You've got a party governing the province with a leader who likes to call a spade, a spade. I am so moving to the WC when I have the option if there's nothing left for me here in Jeffreys Bay. But anyway, off-topic.

[Toxxyc]

As for the R1.75 charge, the toll system uses cameras and license plate recognition systems to track your car. If they don't see an e-Tag, they put it onto a bill for your license. If you are ever stopped at a roadblock and have your license checked, they'll demand you pay the fees or be arrested. If you accumulate too many fees, they can summon you to court for outstanding fines and even blacklist you.

I'm going to say this is untrue. They have to arrest you on grounds of something, and it cannot be on grounds of "not paying toll". It's not a crime, as you didn't steal anything. They can issue you with a court order there and then to paid said fees, yes, and then you can argue your case in front of a judge. The big thing I have a gripe with though is this - they're going to have to write you a ticket or court summons for every time you pass a toll gate. For me, that'll be something akin to 12 summons' a day, each of which will have to be handled separately in front of a judge, each with it's own case number and everything, to get that R1.75/km from me. As soon as one person does this, cases will pile up and courts will have no other choice but to start throwing them out - there's not enough judges on the continent to deal with the amount of work there'll pile up.

Thanks for clearing that up guys. Sounds like one giant ball-ache. Guess as of 30 April I will be avoiding any roads around that area, just in case.

It's just on the N1, from the N4 Witbank on-ramp and on. Before that you can drive on it as you will, no toll fees will apply.

Sometimes I get the feeling us guys here in Cape Town don't know how good we've really got it.

Sometimes I get that same feeling. As much as I love Pretoria, it's people and atmosphere, I have to admit that it's not the place where I grew up in anymore. I want to move to CPT as soon as I possibly can. I'm studying and when I'm done I'm shooting for jobs there, me along with my girlfriend. Hell yes.

There is a cap of something like R550

Yeah, I know. Now I don't know about you, but I don't suddenly have R550 a month, apart from fuel price hikes and inflation on everything else, to just toss at a road I'm already paying for through taxes, fuel prices, etc. etc.

[ZoRPA]

^^^ Yes, they cannot arrest you as it is not a law. If there is no law, there is nothing to enforce.

[Nferno]

if there's nothing left for me here in Jeffreys Bay. But anyway, off-topic.

There's Supertubes. The government can never take that from us :D

[Aesir]

This communication is not a legal opinion in any way whatsoever and only forwarded to yourselves for comment and for further discussion.

As you are all aware, motorist in Gauteng will be paying “toll fees” for the use of the new upgraded Gauteng freeways, to fund the Gauteng freeway development project.

Instead of motorist being billed monthly and receiving a statement for the usage of the E-Toll roads and which usage is linked to your motor vehicle license plate number (VLN), Sanral is currently pushing and encouraging motorist to rather purchase an E-Tag and to register as an E-Tag user, or to register as a VLN user.

In return for purchasing and registering as a E-Tag user / VLN user they promise that motorists may then qualify and be entitled to discounts, be categorized as either a E-Tag user or a registered VLN user to be entitled to discounted tolls. Should you elect not to register with Sanral, you will however not be entitled to any discounts or lower tariffs.

At first glace and when comparing the normal toll rates, to that of the discounted toll rates when you elect to register, the normal and reasonable uninformed motorist would be guided only by the discounts when signing up for registration.




After perusal of Sanral Terms & Conditions however, and which must be signed prior to registration, you will immediately note that the advantages of registering as an E-Toll user is very limited and comes with various onerous and one sided terms and obligations favoring only Sanral. Many clauses in their terms and conditions are being viewed by ourselves as well as other institutions as being either unlawful or in contravention of the Consumer Protection Act.

DISADVANTAGES FOR MOTORISTS WHO ELECT TO REGISTER AS AN E-TAG OR VLN USER

1. The discounts promised, and categorization as a registered E Tag user will not apply to all toll roads.
2. The onus is placed on the registered E-Toll user to establish their user categorization and/or the tolls applicable to a specific E-Toll road. The motorist can obtain the information from Sanral website.
3. A motorist who registers and thereafter fails to comply with any of Sanral’s prescribed terms and conditions, will be deemed to be an E-Road violator and their account can be referred to a collection agency called “Violations Processing Centre” which is a division of Sanral itself. (See paragraph 2 of Sanral terms & conditions).
4. Motorist who register will be billed and will be liable for toll transactions recorded according to the user VLN or E-Tag.
5. Motorist who register agree and understand that their liability to incur toll when the motor vehicle passes a tolling point and that the amount of toll is calculated with reference to the tolling point and not with reference to the KM traveled before the user reaches the tolling point.
6. Motorist who register are given 3 payment options for topping up their E Toll accounts namely, Pre-Paid Accounts, Manual Top Up Payments, Automatic Top Up Payments, all associated with the risk taking into account that you are contracting with a wholly owned State Company where corruption is at the order of the day.
7. Motorists who register further agrees and undertakes to ensure at all times that there is sufficient funds in the E-Toll account and should you fail to make sufficient payments into your E-Toll account will give Sanral the right to hand over your account to VPC for collection purposes.
8. Motorists who register and who elect to link their E-Toll account to a credit card bank account, debit card further authorizes Sanral to:
a. debit the motorists account to fund the E-Toll account for Toll fees incurred when raised;
b. undertakes to ensure that sufficient funds are available in the account;
c. places the duty on the motorist to notify Sanral of bank account detail changes.
9. A registered motorist undertakes and agrees to settle all E-Toll transactions within any period required by Sanral.
10. Should the registered motorist fail to make payments when required to do so, Sanral will have the right without notice to the motorists to suspend the motorist account, to red list the E-Tag and to hand the account over for collection to VPC.
11. The registered motorist further agrees that failure to make payment in respect of an E-Toll transaction in terms of the terms & conditions may result in criminal proceedings against themselves.
12. By registering the motorist agrees and understands that a statement of charges will be available on the E-Toll website for download and that should hardcopies be requested, that Sanral will have the right to charge for furnishing such copies.
13. Registered motorists agree that any payment made to Sanral will be utilized against the oldest charge to the most recent.
14. Registered motorist E-Toll account will be suspended if not used for a period of 12 months and will have to be reactivated. (at a charge).
15. Registered motorist agrees further that Sanral will not be held responsible for any loss or damage a motorist may suffer as a result of incorrect banking details being provided by the user and captured by Sanral except for instances where Sanral or its agent acted with gross negligence.
16. Registered motorists agree to be liable for additional fees and attorney charges which may be incurred by Sanral in the collection of outstanding E-Toll amounts.
17. Registered motorists further consent to the onerous provision that it will be deemed that the fees charged by Sanral are correct and the onus is placed on the motorist to prove that such charges are incorrect.
18. Registered motorists will not be provided with a receipt when they proceed through the tolling point. A tax invoice may however be requested but then at the expense of the motorist.
19. By registering for an E Tag account the onus is placed on the motorist to change the motor vehicle details linked to the E Toll account when you lose possession of the vehicle or where ownership in respect of the vehicle is transferred to a third party. Failure to do so will mean that the motorist will remain liable for any E-Toll charges incurred.
20. By registering the motorist acknowledges and accepts that by purchasing an E Tag and registering same does not in itself necessary result in a valid passage on an E Toll Road and that you may be prevented by Sanral to continue driving on the E Road.
21. By registering, the motorist agrees and accepts that Sanral will be entitled and without notice to the motorist to suspend an E Toll account and to Red List an E Tag, for failure of any of Sanral terms & conditions. Should the motorist later prove that there was no transgression of Sanral terms & conditions, they will have no claim against Sanral as in terms of the agreement such claims are waived by the motorist in favor of Sanral.
22. Whilst ownership in the E Tag and E Tag holder remains the property of Sanral the risk of loss, theft or damage passes to you upon delivery.
23. By registering, the motorist irrevocably authorizes Sanral or its duly authorized agents to obtain from any institutions where they may have an account or any credit bureau any information concerning themselves.
24. By registering the motorist further acknowledge and accepts that Sanral may unilaterally update and amend their terms & conditions and that the motorist has consented to such amendments and has agreed to abide by such amended terms & conditions.
25. By registering for an E Tag, the motorist is affording Sanral a blanket indemnity for any wrong doing, loss or damage that the motorist may have suffered by using the E road.
26. A registered motorist further agrees to an unlawful provision in consenting to the jurisdiction of the Magistrate’s Court of Pretoria in respect of all matters arising out of the terms & conditions.




A copy of Sanral terms and conditions is attached hereto for your ease of reference.


ADVANTAGES FOR MOTORIST WHO ELECTS NOT TO REGISTER AND RATHER PAY THE NORMAL TOLL RATE TARIFFS

1. Motorist will be billed for the use of the E Toll, without automatically being liable for such use, in the event of receiving incorrect readings from Sanral, theft, cloning of number plates, or the cloning of a motorist personal information etc
2. The onus will be on Sanral to prove that it was the motorist’s vehicle that traveled the recorded distances.
3. Payments will be made and effected by the motorist into a Sanral bank account.
4. Sanral’s collection division (VPC) will have no jurisdiction over non registered motorists.
5. Motorists will be entitled to monthly statements without any charge.
6. Motorists would be entitled to dictate how payments be allocated in respect of Toll road usage.
7. Motorists who do not register would not automatically be liable for additional fees or attorney charges.
8. The onus remains on Sanral to prove that the fees charged and for which the motorist is debited are correct.
9. Until an exemption notice is published motorist will be entitled to a receipt when paying for E Toll road usage.
10. In the event of a dispute with Sanral regarding outstanding charges, Sanral will not have the right to prevent the non registered motorist from continued use of the E Toll road.
11. Losses suffered by non registered motorist can be recovered by way of civil action.
12. Sanral will not have the right to have access to any private information of a non registered motorist.
13. Sanral will not have the right to amend any terms & conditions without the motorist agreeing to such amendments.
14. In the event of litigation, Sanral will have to issue a civil Summons or proceed criminally against the motorist in terms of the Criminal Procedure Act and will be forced to litigate against the motorist in a Magistrate’s Court who has jurisdiction over that motorist. (It is unlawful to consent to the jurisdiction of a specific Magistrate’s Court).

Got this in an email this morning.