New Anti-Smoking Law on the table

[GeometriX]

Legion, you've been completely unhelpful in this discussion. All you've done is sit there and say how much you disagree with this, told us that smoking hasn't affected your health*, or waffled some hyperbole about freedom. Having an opinion on the matter does not entitle you to go unchallenged. This is a discussion board, we're here to discuss the matter. No point in just jumping in, throwing your opinion around, and then getting ****y when it's challenged.

You think you're a victim of some sort of infringement of your rights? Fine. Stand your ground, convince us that you are.

*By the way, I've always found this argument to be directly related to an individual's smoking and lifestyle habits. For interest's sake, do you exercise? How many cigarettes do you smoke a day? How long have you been smoking?

[Legion]

I'll just keep quiet from now on.

[Kharrak]

And just as many non-smokers cough when they get in the vicinity of smokers. The disgusting smell of cigarettes is enough to make me gag. It cannot be compared to exhaust fumes, imo, because exhaust fumes don't go clinging to your clothes, your hair, the back of your throat. I've never come home and been told 'phew, you smell like exhaust', but I've come home numerous times and been told I stink of smoke.

Stop making yourself out to be a victim, Legion. Smokers are anything but.

Hahahaha, wow dude. So much hate, so much discrimination. You REALLY don't like smokers ;P

It all comes down to willpower. I've always said those people who have issues quitting cigarettes only do so because they're weak-willed. If you really want to quit smoking, you will

Out of interest, how many smoker friends have you had, and known, who have tried to quit smoking?

[spjt07]

Wow, I was a smoker for 11 years and have been smoke free for about 2 or 3 months (minus 2 days of slip up due to very very stressful moments with my gf being in and out of hospital) but throughout those 11 years I have always tried to think as much as possible like a non smoker.
Stand away from corridors
Step aside when people walk past
Blow smoke upwards rather then straight out into public walkway
Moving away from non smokers when hanging out with friends
Just the basic real general stuff to be more considerate to fellow friends/strangers. I just really wish more people would do the same.
As moronic as it may sound I have always hated the smell of cigarette smoke, even when being a smoker so walking into a shop or class at college through smokers was always something I hated and would hold my breath just so that I didn't have to breathe in their stench.
I never smoked more then 15 a day so I was never that "heavy of a smoker" but stopping was very difficult, just a good thing that I had help with the Puffaway, that **** really helped me.

[brazed]

Maybe I wasn't quite clear enough when I said :"very few people I've ever met started because they purely felt like it, there were MANY reasons surrounding it".

This is not me saying it wasn't the person's choice, this is me saying that it's hardly a case of someone saying to themselves "I feel like a cig, let me go buy one!". People don't just all of a sudden light up.

But yeah, smokers of course DON'T have any rights, why in the hell would they want to stand up for them, how dare they? Please, the nonsense about people being weak willed or that the addiction is purely chemical has to stop. This isn't black and white, that's all I'm saying.

[Zoop]

Hahahaha, wow dude. So much hate, so much discrimination. You REALLY don't like smokers ;P

Hey, it's not discrimination unless that person can't help that which I have issue with. :P

Most of my revulsion for the habit came from when I dated a smoker who couldn't go an hour without having to light up a cigarette. It placed enormous strain on the relationship almost right off the bat, and eventually ended up being the prime reason why I decided to end it.

Out of interest, how many smoker friends have you had, and known, who have tried to quit smoking?

In my immediate circle of friends, 6 people. Only one guy actually did quit.

Out of my family? Beyond count.

This is not me saying it wasn't the person's choice, this is me saying that it's hardly a case of someone saying to themselves "I feel like a cig, let me go buy one!". People don't just all of a sudden light up.

Yeah, you're right. Around 90% of my friends who are smokers started because it was 'cool', 'rebellious' or they caved to peer pressure.

My experience so far is that people don't want to stop smoking because they turn the habit into a psychological crutch for themselves.

But yeah, smokers of course DON'T have any rights, why in the hell would they want to stand up for them, how dare they?

Nobody said that. What we're saying is that their rights shouldn't infringe on those of non-smokers. They can smoke wherever they want, as long as it doesn't affect me.

[GeometriX]

Don't think that I'm unfamiliar with the addiction. Also, don't get me wrong, either. I didn't say that the addiction is purely chemical. I said the the chemical addiction is mild at best. I smoked for ten years before I quit, and I tried many, many times to quit before then. What changed from the unsuccessful attempts to the final successful one wasn't the chemical addiction, though, it was my mindset. It was my understanding of the "culture of smoking".

My point is that there's more to smoking that just the chemical addiction. I didn't say "it's easy to quit" because I know that it's not. I'm saying that it's easy to break the chemical addiction - it's a few days, maybe a week or two for really heavy smokers. Overcoming the rest of the "culture of smoking" is the difficult bit. I don't think it's as simple as lacking or having willpower - everyone has their own reason to quit and it's not like most smokers wake up in the morning and actually want to quit. I enjoyed smoking for years and only wanted to quit for the last few.

To respond to your sarcasm: I'll say without a doubt in my mind that smokers have as many rights (and, equally, responsibilities) as non-smokers. I don't think that's ever been contested That's why I said a few pages back that this isn't an "us vs them" thing. This is an everybody thing. Smokers don't have the right to poison/bother/etc others, however, just as non-smokers don't have that right. I think that's all "we" are trying to say.

[Legion]

If geo stepped in i must have done something stupid, probably without noticing it.

[MonGooS]

Hmmmm...

So you're in general favour of putting people in house arrest if they become ill with any sickness? (no going to visit doctors!)

Your argument also clashes with the idea of using petroleum based transportation. Ban it all?

Also, discrimination is fun :D

No, because being sick isn't a choice. You don't choose to have the flu, but you do choose to have a smoke.

The same for cars. Lets be honest, we don't really choose to have the billions of cars on the roads, it has become a necessity. So my opinion on it stays the same as the sickness, its not a choice. The world is filled with pollution, most of them have become necessity, but smoking isn't.

A smoker has complete control of lighting one next to me, knowing full well that I am going to hate it, and that it is going to cause me some kind of harm. That to me this is infringement on my rights.

[Kharrak]

No, because being sick isn't a choice. You don't choose to have the flu, but you do choose to have a smoke.

The same for cars. Lets be honest, we don't really choose to have the billions of cars on the roads, it has become a necessity. So my opinion on it stays the same as the sickness, its not a choice. The world is filled with pollution, most of them have become necessity, but smoking isn't.

A smoker has complete control of lighting one next to me, knowing full well that I am going to hate it, and that it is going to cause me some kind of harm. That to me this is infringement on my rights.

AH, yet you failed to list that in your requirements. To quote you:

-I have the right to a healthy lifestyle.
-You have the right to do what you want as long as it doesn't harm the people around you.
-Smoking in public harm's those around you (it doesn't matter how much, the fact is it harms them)
-Your right to smoke in public is automatically cancelled, but not the right to smoke in the privacy of your home.

How can a smoker even begin to claim the right to smoke in public? I am not saying don't smoke, but why insist on doing it around other people? Would you like it if I walked around spitting in your face? No. Its not killing you, but its causing you discomfort, so why can you walk around causing me discomfort?

Nothing about choice in there. Further more, you cemented the opinion by saying "It's simple".

But let's carry on with this sudden and convenient tangent of "choice". Smokers, in my experience, have always chosen to smoke in the smoking area. They always choose to ask if they can smoke at a place if they can't find one, and if not they choose to leave. They are not without their considerations.

If they don't? It's the person, not the habit that's the problem.

I think the crux of the matter, however, is the theme of addiction. People have varying levels of addiction - several research results implying that many people have a predisposed genetic make up that results in them being considerably more vulnerable to addictive reactions. This results in someone who can kick a habit with relative ease, and someone who goes through indescribably horrible experiences when trying to quit. As such, would it be fair to say that a person who can kick the habit is merely more considerate than one who can not?

Further more, I find the idea that coercive choice is still free willed choice. Peer pressure puts, as the name suggests, pressure on the person to make a decision. The choice here isn't always directly about smoking, but to either fit in or avoid harassment. This leading to addiction, does it automatically mean the person is inconsiderate and selfish for smoking?

[B4warn3d]

But let's carry on with this sudden and convenient tangent of "choice". Smokers, in my experience, have always chosen to smoke in the smoking area. They always choose to ask if they can smoke at a place if they can't find one, and if not they choose to leave. They are not without their considerations.

I'm wondering how many of these considerate smokers would exist without the smoking laws? Let's use your examples. They smoke in smoking areas because those are the areas where smoking is allowed, not because they "choose" to smoke there. They choose to ask if they can smoke in a place because the law doesn't allow them to smoke in public spaces. I can't help but think that without these laws that many smokers won't think twice about lighting up wherever they want.

[Soulmantle]

Why do smokers not like using ashtrays in their own cars?

[Kharrak]

I'm wondering how many of these considerate smokers would exist without the smoking laws? Let's use your examples. They smoke in smoking areas because those are the areas were smoking is allowed, not because they "choose" to smoke there. They choose to ask if they can smoke in a place because the law doesn't allow them to smoke in public spaces. I can't help but think that without these laws that many smokers won't think twice about lighting up wherever they want.

So you're saying that smokers are mind controlled / grabbed by machines and tossed into those areas?

A massive amount of complaints in this thread are about how smokers DON'T follow the current laws, and smoke wherever they want at the detriment to others. Accusations that smokers already light up wherever / whenever they want.

Why do smokers not like using ashtrays in their own cars?

The car window generally serves. Ash trays inside cars can be... problematic.

[B4warn3d]

So you're saying that smokers are mind controlled / grabbed by machines and tossed into those areas?

Not at all. What I said is that not all smokers are considerate like you're saying. That's all.

A massive amount of complaints in this thread are about how smokers DON'T follow the current laws, and smoke wherever they want at the detriment to others. Accusations that smokers already light up wherever / whenever they want.

That's not what anyone was complaining about, In fact, If going from this thread, I think we can safely agree that smokers do generally adhere to the current smoking laws. The argument was that some people felt that the law is taking smoke banning too far and others think that the enforcement of these laws are necessary.

[Squirly]

Why do smokers not like using ashtrays in their own cars?

The smell. It actually affects your resale value, believe it or not.

[Yuri]

I'm an ex smoker myself, and I must say I don't really mind the smell of smoke all that much. I can't say I enjoy breathing in someone else's second hand smoke, (from a health perspective) but I don't find it off putting either.
Maybe because I"m a regular at the Doors, and that place smells like 90% of the people there smoke.

One thing that is pretty gross is people that put out a cigarette and then pocket the stompie for their next smoke. That smell is pretty gruesome.

[Squirly]

And that smell is the one that actually permeates your car or living room. It's not really from the lit and smoking cigarette, but from the stompies and the ash that spend days in your ashtray.

[wisp]

One thing that is pretty gross is people that put out a cigarette and then pocket the stompie for their next smoke. That smell is pretty gruesome.

Nay boet , you nip the stompie and put it behind your ear for later :P ,
but really i remember as a smoker i didnt smell bad , second hand smoke just made me want another smoke never understood what all the fuss was about till i quit.Anyway the government makes to much money of the tax from cigarette sales to really come down really heavy on the public IMO

[echo]

Maybe it's just nostalgia speaking (Because my dad has always smoked) but isn't that smell when someone first lights up a cigarette just the best? And I'm not even a smoker.

[Spindleshanks]

Maybe it's just nostalgia speaking (Because my dad has always smoked) but isn't that smell when someone first lights up a cigarette just the best? And I'm not even a smoker.

Indeed. I also savor the moment when my dad fires up his first cigarette of the night when he gets home from work. :)

What I find bad about smoking in general is the "culture" behind it nowadays. I guess it's because it was more acceptable back in the day, but nowadays people do it for the rebellious image they get out of it. The kind of "**** you, I smoke so whut" attitude. This seems to have been adopted by the majority of young people that smoke. There's no more style. They got a lot of class, it's all low.

As for the law, I say bring it on. Smoking is hazardous to your health and to those around you.