http://tlug.jp/articles/Windows_Is_Free
Long read, but worth it - and it makes many points in addition to what I did in the piracy thread.The impact of pirated software on free software
Windows Is Free
http://tlug.jp/articles/Windows_Is_Free
Long read, but worth it - and it makes many points in addition to what I did in the piracy thread.The impact of pirated software on free software
"Clearly, all indications are that many people will often trade in a little morality for something that's valuable to own and free to get. To make the exchange of principles for goods, one has to cut a deal with their conscience by forming the right justification."
"They are indifferent to the crime because the ease and pervasiveness of sharing software has obscured the value of the items they're giving away. They assure themselves they aren't really doing anything wrong because, after all, if the woman dancer wasn't offered a free copy, then she simply would never use it. She's not depriving the source company of any profit because it's not profit they would ever see from her anyway. That kind of logic, and there is some logic in it, helps obscure the cost of software in the minds of the casual cracked software user.
Consider how different the whole interaction would be if the woman receiving the pirated software was offered a 400 dollar stolen iPod."
As I said - dressing theft up in different clothes doesn't make it any less theft.
And, yes, Miktar, I do understand why Microsoft may actually benefit from it, but it still doesn't make it right. Also, note that the ubiquitousness of P2P etc is a recent phenomenon, and wasn't mainstream when XP came out (although the "computer guy" has always existed!).
The other problem with his article is that Linux has only recently become mainstream user-friendly (particularly Linux). It is only now that I can recommend Linux to friends knowing that I won't get hundreds of phone calls! The Linux effect in the home user market has yet to be felt.
Last edited by dangarratt; 16-08-2007 at 10:26 PM. Reason: added second quote
That is so true.They assure themselves they aren't really doing anything wrong because, after all, if the woman dancer wasn't offered a free copy, then she simply would never use it. She's not depriving the source company of any profit because it's not profit they would ever see from her anyway.
There is almost no-one that would pay R4000 for vista ultimate. So if the people that couldn't afford it copied it. There'd be no way microsoft could say they lost money. Those people wouldn't have bought it anyway.
@dangarratt: You are being extremely black & white not to mention stoic.
"Doesn't make it right"
Define "right" first, plz.
@ Miktar - and so are you - very black and white about it all being grey. And grey means I can redefine the law! W000T! And I can decide on other people's behalf whether what I am doing is acceptable or not. What a great philosophy!
I'm not discussing this topic with you anymore, since you obviously refuse to listen to reason. You already mentioned you work for a bean-counting software development firm - this concludes your view is 100% biased.
Which is a shame, because it's plain as day to anyone who bothers thinking about it that "piracy" is a maligned umbrella term, and that there is more to this than simple right/wrong.
But hey - you don't tell me how to do my job, I won't tell you how to do yours.
You're the one who's been redefining the law, or did you miss my reply to you about definitions in the Piracy thread?Originally Posted by dangarratt
If you want to start discussing philosophies, try this: When the overwhelming majority of people disobey a law, the problem is not with the people, but with the law. Laws serve the people, not vice-versa. To argue otherwise is to invite fascism.
WHAT?!! Do my eyes decieve me?Admins for piracy!???Where are brazed and dislekcia?I am pretty sure they do not share your sentiments,yet they aren't reacting violently by bitching and screaming like they normally do to anyone saying anything remotely positive about piracy.Go figure.
I just read the entire piracy thread,an I can't believe how many ****ing whimps you get,just because it was Mik who said piracy is o.k you guys just accepted it.Had it been just about anyone else,there would have been a major outcry,but even the "intellectuals" decided that they would rather remain silent or agree with mik than say voice their opinion.I think there are 2 reasons for that.
1.You are on good terms with mik and fear if you say something he doesn't like he wont play with you anymore.
2.You are so scared that you might be humiliated or beaten in an argument that you would rather not even try.
Dangarrat I commend you for atleast not being to scared to say what you really think.
Last edited by Sir)Kickasselot; 18-08-2007 at 07:27 PM.
You forgot the one that says
3) What he says makes perfect and logical sense.
4) What He said I already agree with.
People should open there minds to new ideas and new ways of thinking. Stubborness is a bad characteristic.
This article is purely right...and, the author explains it all very much in detail. Only things that are keeping people back are like he says, serious gamers who would rather pay the $200 (those who either buy it pre-installed on a computer OR for those that don't use cracked versions anyway) and businesses who are too afraid of these legal issues. Then you get people like dangarrat (who are the minority) who are just plainly against pirated software (or any other manner of "stealing" for that matter).
My argument on this is a little drastic, some would say it doesn't really fit into this topic (perhaps it does). Software is code, code is mathematical algorithms...which is knowledge. Knowledge should be FREE. Sure, it's fine if companies charge for service (because those poor people at the end of the line need to buy their milk and bread too). I guess I'm just an open-source guy and someone who likes sharing knowledge, everyone are entitled to it imho.
My 2 cents again
EDIT: After re-reading, I do realize that people will argue that those poor fellas who worked ages on Windows' development need money too. I realize this. However they work on that model, if they were to be giving away all versions of Windows for free, I can assure you they'd be working on a volunteer system like the open-source community...which is exactly what it is. Also, I do know that Microsoft do pay for certain royalties (proprietary codecs etc.)
Last edited by Plan 9; 18-08-2007 at 09:49 PM.
I am referring to everyone who I have personally seen bitching about piracy,and now,had a sudden change of hart.
Sir)Kickasselot - read the entire thread, realize that it is not a case of advocating piracy and, finally, use your BRAIN to come to the conclusion that admins are NOT saying piracy is good, but that's it's not as bad as some higher-ups in the industry would like you to believe.
I know it's a lot to ask, but it's totally worth it (reading, I mean).
Sometimes, Sir)Kickasselot - a person may suddenly discover that in light of new evidence and ideas, paradigm shifts can occur.
My own view of piracy has changed dramatically over the course of the last 10 years, going from 'PIRACY BAD' before working for NAG, to 'PIRACY GOOD' while working for NAG, and now my view on piracy is a very holistic one - I'm taking into account ALL the factors in play, and looking at the bigger picture.
I think Historians try to do the same thing, so as to better understand the motivations and cause/effect structures.
Yes, my opinions and views have changed: it's called admitting when you're wrong, or that you didn't know enough before when you initially formed the opinion.
Mik,I am in now way attacking you,you gave your opinion and you stick with it,thats fine.the problem I have is with the people I KNOW still hate piracy and are either remaining silent,or agreeing with you just because their scared of having their asses handed to them.
Squirly,read the post that mik made after yours,mik is saying PIRACY IS GOOD FOR THE IDUSTRY.Strange that people who know the least,say the most.Follow your own advice and go read the locked piracy forum,I am afraid you have no idea what you are talking about,and before you read it,and fully understand what it says,shut up.
Yes: I believe piracy is good for the industry, and all my reasons are listed clearly in the Piracy thread.
I think we can move on from this topic now?
@ Miktar
If someone disagrees with you, I think you should be grown-up enough to discuss their point of view without insulting their beliefs, saying they don't listen to reason, accusing them of penny-pinching, and calling them biased.
It would be very easy to mount an attack on you in the same way.
I reiterate: You (and many others) believe that in certain cases it's okay to deprive someone else of income they deserve (because of whatever reason, including that you believe you are helping them in a roundabout way). I believe it is not.
Then I'm sorry to hear that. I believe you are incorrect, and that your viewpoint is biased based on personal situation.
If you believe it is not, you can elaborate, but in all honesty I have no interest in discussing this further, especially not on a forum.
However, it proves to me that you've not been listening to what I say, because you accuse me of believing "it's okay to deprive someone else of income". I do not believe that, and the fact that you assume I do means you've not read a single word I've said, or you're not willing to meet me half-way on this.
I sternly speak out against the act of piracy that physically takes profit from someone else's work - I've said so several times in the piracy thread. However, people who casually pirate to "check stuff out" do not in fact take money from the developers or publishers, because those people would never have bought the product in the first place.
Those people represent your advertising, your word-of-month: such people would, in the past, be the people who tape a song off the radio and then listen to it at home, perhaps with friends or to play it to a friend because they think it's cool.
History has taught us, time and again, that the last ****ing thing you do is quash -that- specific instance of piracy, because that is shooting yourself in the foot.
dangarratt, you're being black and white on this. I implore you to set aside your personal biased just for a few minutes to consider where I'm coming from on this.
I'm not stupid, I'm not blind and I'm not ignorant. I spent every day, up to my ears in sales figures, stats, piracy figures, retail outlet figures, publisher and distributor figures - and not just for the gaming industry, but movie and music too.
The one thing that stands out like a sore thumb, the "elephant in the room" as it were - is that piracy does more good than harm, in context of piracy that does not involve someone making money off someone else's products.
Once again, I bring up 3D Studio Max, Photoshop, Maya, Softimage, Lightscape and other highly-expensive programs that get pirated to hell and high water - and yet, the piracy of those products has not impacted the financial success of their companies - in fact, said companies have had nothing but benfits from their software being pirated.
I could explain why, but really, it's elementary and I don't like repeating myself.
I don't deal in idealism, I deal in facts, and history.
Just to really grind the point:
Pirated game <> lost sale. If I get handed a pirated copy of a game, doesn't mean I would buy the original if I saw it in the shop.
Last edited by Squirly; 21-08-2007 at 10:56 AM.
This is exactly why I keep reiterating the point, that "piracy" is an umbrella term that is being misapplied to too large an idea.
A lot of people have gotten so brainwashed by executives and beancounters that "PIRACY BAAD! NAPSTER BAAD!", that they don't even realize that "piracy" is a straw-man, created to help certain people make more money.
I'll cite examples, once again, of why piracy does not hurt sales: Mika's Grace Kelly, Galactic Civilizations, Starcraft, Diablo, Quake, Quake 2, Doom 3, Popcap games...
Every single one of those had record-breaking piracy.
Every single one of those had record-breaking sales and financial growth.
People need to understand the difference between piracy, and sharing.
Analogy tiem.
Bootleggers put Metallica on the map. At that time, when they were nobody, Larss and company were happy to see fans distributing cassette copies and getting their names out there.
Fast forward a decade and it's all "FIRE/NAPSTER BAD!"
Same with gaming. Pirates can make a game much more popular and high profile. Studios like Valve and Blizzard actually owe a lot to pirates for turning games like Starcraft and Halflife into more than just passing fads.
It's something of a force of nature though, and can be as destructive as it can be positive.
My approach to using piracy as a tool and actually embracing it, would be to do away with copy protection schemes, but use episodic downloadable expandable content as a drawcard. Buy or warez the game and play it offline but to access extra content, you have to authorize online.
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